Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

Baggs

He, she and it cover everything, surely? In fact, as far as sexually reproducing life-forms are concerned he and she (plus his and hers) covers everything. Sex is what matters, not whatever 'gender' is supposed to mean.

One of the great developments in English was the dropping of masculine and feminine for objects that are neither.

I wouldn’t EVER refer to a human as it though. I’m not fussed by pro-nouns and that’s probably because I’m a straight woman, who’s pretty laid back, I don’t care really what people call me (within reason of course), and I’m happy with he/she/them or whatever else it is someone wishes to be called.

Rosie51

Cossy You are correct that trans women are, almost exclusively, biologically men, born as male, registered as male.

almost exclusively?? A female cannot be a transwoman as she is a woman. Who other than males can be transwomen? There is no third or more sex?

There are some very rare cases of babies being born as hermaphrodites, with both male and female sexual organs. I believe we now refer to these people as “intersex”

Quote from Google:

*In Humans (Intersex)
Outdated Term: "Hermaphrodite" was historically used for humans with ambiguous sex traits but is now considered inaccurate and often stigmatizing.
Modern Terminology: The preferred term is intersex, an umbrella term for people born with innate variations in sex characteristics (chromosomes, gonads, hormones, or genitals) that don't fit typical male/female bodies.
True Hermaphroditism (Intersex Variation): A very rare condition where an individual has both ovarian and testicular tissue (or ovotestis), sometimes with mixed chromosomes (XX/XY).*

Intersex people have nothing to do with this debate though. Rosie can explain far better than I, so I'll leave it at that.

Regarding pronouns - I used to be willing to use 'she' when referring to a transwoman, in the spirit of tolerance and so on; but these days I don't, because of the coercion and bullying of staff (and participants in online workshops etc) into displaying pronouns, and in so doing giving tacit support to the notion that one's ex is (a) relevant in a workplace email and/or (b) is not immediately obvious when on a Teams/Zoom screen.

It is all a political game, and I won't play any more. It's easy enough to avoid using pronouns - in fact when someone is there in a meeting you wouldn't use them anyway. I will not bow to the nonsensical belief that using a 'wrong' pronoun is 'literal genocide', but I am in the fortunate position of not having my livelihood depend on a willingness to do so. I will therefore put my weight behind those who are still labouring under the cosh of 'being kind'.

Also, boringly, I’ve just consulted my elder daughter (lesbian), she’s just explained to me that although she and her wife and her sister (all lesbians, not bi) have no issue whatsoever with LGBT+, she is aware that a small proportion of lesbians do not wish “T” to be included, in addition (this shocked me and I’m not easily shocked) on gay dating websites some lesbians will state in their profiles,

“No T,F, or A”

I didn’t know what this meant and she tells me it means, “No Trans, Fatties or Asians!” So sorry if anyone is offended, this does not represent mine or my households views. Mine you, if I was a gay lesbian I too would avoid Trans people as potential partners, and I think if registering on dating websites people should have to state their biological sex.

She also believes those Trans who transition from male to female are not the root of any women’s fears, but MEN, men who present as straight men or pretend to be gay or pretend they are trans. She lived in Brighton for 4 years, 3 at University and a further year working. During this time she and her partner found more and more MEN gaining entry to gay bars and clubs in order to sexually harass women.

I’m not anti men, nor do I not support women’s rights, women’s only places or keeping women safe. I just think this whole fear of Trans Women (or men dressing as women) has been escalated due to some very tragic and unacceptable behaviour perpetrated by the minority of trans women.

My friend with a DSD (difference of sexual development) is insulted by the term intersex, as are many people with DSDs. These individuals are all either male or female and DSDs are specific to one sex or the other. There is no third sex. It is insulting to use people with a DSD as any sort of explanation or whatever for transgender people.

Sex is determined by the gametes a body is organised to produce and will at sexual maturity produce providing nothing went wrong during development. Females produce large immotile gametes, males produce small motile gametes. There are no third gametes.

Doodledog I hadn't refreshed the page so missed your post. I must have been framing my post as you posted. 😊

* It's easy enough to avoid using pronouns - in fact when someone is there in a meeting you wouldn't use them anyway. I will not bow to the nonsensical belief that using a 'wrong' pronoun is 'literal genocide', but I am in the fortunate position of not having my livelihood depend on a willingness to do so. I will therefore put my weight behind those who are still labouring under the cosh of 'being kind'.*

I agree, but I think there’s a difference between “kindness” and “tolerance”.

If I felt uncomfortable using the “correct” or “requested” pronouns I’d simply use their first name or not anything at all. Problem solved. Hoorah for being retired !

Bridie22

We can debate this until we are all blue in the face, the Supreme Court of the land ruled that a biological man must use male onlyfacilities , a biological woman must use female only spaces we cannot change biology.

Yes indeed.

How does one "feel female one's head?"

Just for comparison reference DSDs, humans are designed to be bipedal and binocular. As far as I'm aware we don't classify babies born with either missing legs or eyes as a different kind of human, we just accept that something went wrong during development and they should have had two legs, and two functioning eyes.

Rosie51

My friend with a DSD (difference of sexual development) is insulted by the term intersex, as are many people with DSDs. These individuals are all either male or female and DSDs are specific to one sex or the other. There is no third sex. It is insulting to use people with a DSD as any sort of explanation or whatever for transgender people.

Sex is determined by the gametes a body is organised to produce and will at sexual maturity produce providing nothing went wrong during development. Females produce large immotile gametes, males produce small motile gametes. There are no third gametes.

Thanks Rosie, I didn’t mean to insult anyone. I simply quoted Google.

Ilovecheese

How does one "feel female one's head?"

OK, not answering any more, I explained myself very badly and you keep chipping away when I’m pretty sure you know what I’m trying to say.

I’ll simply leave this debate by stating I am for women’s safety and rights, I’m not anti LGBT+ and I do have friends in this community. I don’t care what pronouns people use, or how they dress.

I don’t condone sexual predators however they choose to present themselves, I don’t condone discrimination of any group.

I’m tolerant and more than happy to compromise and never intend to insult or offend anyone, though sometimes I don’t fully explain my reasoning.

I’m coming off this thread now, as I think it’s run its course.

Thank you, I’ve learned things today from this thread (all positive)

Anyone sick of all this poltically correct nonsense about pronouns? I'm sure most people don't worry about being he or she, but obviously the militant trans lobby and their left wing mates think it's a massive deal. Also walking past a union noticeboard that has no mention of pay campaigns and employee rights, but is full of rainbow flags and trans rights posters shows how out of touch they've become to ordinary members.

Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”
But he didn’t care whether he made women uncomfortable by changing in the “women’s”.
Nice for a man to be able to blame the authority, for making women feel uncomfortable, instead of his own actions.

Cossy (who has left the thread) wrote She also believes those Trans who transition from male to female are not the root of any women’s fears, but MEN, men who present as straight men or pretend to be gay or pretend they are trans. She lived in Brighton for 4 years, 3 at University and a further year working. During this time she and her partner found more and more MEN gaining entry to gay bars and clubs in order to sexually harass women.

Are we now supposed to be able to distinguish between the transwomen who mean no harm and the ones who are using the trans mantra as cover for predatory behaviour?

Exactly Mollygo, it’s not complicated unless we make it so.

If Rose had cared about others, they wouldn’t have behaved as they did. “It isn’t all about you “ is an under used comment

The thing that made me ignore all the 'be kind' stuff, and women are often socialised to 'be kind', was the understanding that this is a male sexual rights movement. Just like campaigns to support prostitution,porn etc. I don't feel any need to be kind in those debates, and for me this is the same.

Ilovecheese

How does one "feel female one's head?"

Cossy

OK, not answering any more, I explained myself very badly and you keep chipping away when I’m pretty sure you know what I’m trying to say.

No actually it’s a reasonable question.
How do you know how a female feels if you have never and will never be one?

One of the first things we learnt as counsellors was not to use the phrase “I know how you feel.” because you don’t.

You aren’t the other person. You haven’t lived their life. So a man definitely doesn’t know how to “feel like a woman in his head” any more than a woman knows how to feel like a man in her head.
If he really did know how to ^feel like a woman in his head” he would know that his actions could be upsetting to women.
Going ahead and carrying out those actions whilst pretending to be a woman, regardless of any distress that causes is the behaviour of the man he is.

SueDonim

Cossy (who has left the thread) wrote She also believes those Trans who transition from male to female are not the root of any women’s fears, but MEN, men who present as straight men or pretend to be gay or pretend they are trans. She lived in Brighton for 4 years, 3 at University and a further year working. During this time she and her partner found more and more MEN gaining entry to gay bars and clubs in order to sexually harass women.

Are we now supposed to be able to distinguish between the transwomen who mean no harm and the ones who are using the trans mantra as cover for predatory behaviour?

I am back and just felt I had to respond!

No, we (as women) have absolutely no way of distinguish between TW who mean no harm and those who mean us harm, just as we cannot tell which straight men will harm us and which won’t.

Sorry again, but I meant that TW, in their head, “thinks” they are a woman internally, in their head this is what they believe.

No, you’re correct, no one can possibly know how anyone else truly feels in their own head, whoever they are.

I would say a clear indication that a man means harm is if they ignore womens boundaries and consent.

Galaxy

I would say a clear indication that a man means harm is if they ignore womens boundaries and consent.

Well yes indeed, but at that point it’s sometimes too late. Ooops sorry, I will go.

Cossy

Sorry again, but I meant that TW, in their head, “thinks” they are a woman internally, in their head this is what they believe.

No, you’re correct, no one can possibly know how anyone else truly feels in their own head, whoever they are.

Rather like the various tales of men who thought they were Napoleon, then. Psychiatry has since diagnosed their condition as delusions of grandeur.

And again so what. Womens boundaries aren't reliant on the feelings in a man's head, what clothes he chooses to wear, or what he has or hasn't had done to his body.

Rather like the various tales of men who thought they were Napoleon, then. Psychiatry has since diagnosed their condition as delusions of grandeur.
Or an Admiral.

Which is nothing like someone thinking they are in the wrong body, for which we have sympathy, but which is abused by an element who use the word transgender as an excuse for their abusive behaviour and thus give transgender people, living their lives without fanfare, a bad name and make others judge them unfairly.