Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

You can't be in the wrong body, unless you want all of us to believe in souls. Sorry but we have to challenge this language, it is so damaging for young people to be affirmed in this.

You can't be in the wrong body

I didn't say that. I said thinking you are in the wrong body.

No worries allira. Sorry. A lot of the reasons we are in this mess is that we have accepted ideological language, so I tend to challenge it at every turn

Cumbrianmale56

Anyone sick of all this poltically correct nonsense about pronouns? I'm sure most people don't worry about being he or she, but obviously the militant trans lobby and their left wing mates think it's a massive deal. Also walking past a union noticeboard that has no mention of pay campaigns and employee rights, but is full of rainbow flags and trans rights posters shows how out of touch they've become to ordinary members.

I am fairly left wing, and neither I, nor none of my 'leftie' friends support the militant trans lobby. Quite the reverse.

Please don't make this a left/right oppositional thing - it really isn't. It's about women's rights.

Cossy

* It's easy enough to avoid using pronouns - in fact when someone is there in a meeting you wouldn't use them anyway. I will not bow to the nonsensical belief that using a 'wrong' pronoun is 'literal genocide', but I am in the fortunate position of not having my livelihood depend on a willingness to do so. I will therefore put my weight behind those who are still labouring under the cosh of 'being kind'.*

I agree, but I think there’s a difference between “kindness” and “tolerance”.

If I felt uncomfortable using the “correct” or “requested” pronouns I’d simply use their first name or not anything at all. Problem solved. Hoorah for being retired !

That's pretty much exactly what I said😀

Galaxy

I would say a clear indication that a man means harm is if they ignore womens boundaries and consent.

Really well put. Galaxy.
Of course ignoring women’s boundaries and consent is an indication of harm. The harm has already been done by any man TW or not, who does that.
If you found a stranger in your house when you got home, would you believe they meant no harm? That’s what these TW are doing-going into places where they’re not entitled to be.

Cossy (who has left the thread but pops in now and again) says

. I just think this whole fear of Trans Women (or men dressing as women) has been escalated due to some very tragic and unacceptable behaviour perpetrated by the minority of trans women.

That’s been said so many times on threads about TW including this one.

The fear is more to do with the fact that an increasing number of men have seen pretending to be a woman as giving them access to places and events where they can harm women, cause distress to women and take over roles and positions that should be for women, thereby depriving them of opportunities and rewards.

Also the fear, as demonstrated by the root of this thread, that male rights will be given preference over existing female right and the women who object to that will be punished.

The only way to deal with that is No males in female spaces competitions etc.
- whatever they call themselves,
- however they feel in their heads
- however they dress
- however nice or harmless or kind
That’s needful because of the behaviour of Cossy’s
minority of trans women.
It’s also another example of the “I don’t care whether I hurt women or other trans” attitude of those TW.

Mollygo

^Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”^
But he didn’t care whether he made women uncomfortable by changing in the “women’s”.
Nice for a man to be able to blame the authority, for making women feel uncomfortable, instead of his own actions.

Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”

The problem though is still men. If other men make Rose feel uncomfortable, then they need to be the ones having pressure put on them to accept and accommodate Rose.

I've seen quite a few posts on X (formerly known as twitter) from transwomen who say they have only ever used the male facilities and have never encountered any difficulty. Many have posted accompanying photos and even videos of encounters with men who haven't been the least bothered.

On X there is a video of an interview on GB news with that well known trans supporter Peter Tatchell. In it he states that transwomen who have undergone full surgical transition should be allowed into female single sex spaces. Apart from the obvious fact that having your penis inverted does not change your sex, that would seem to imply he is in favour of genital inspections, or possibly genital passports, to access single sex spaces. Seems rather extreme to me, but then he is a darling of the transgender community.............

Re-reading some of this Thread, the phrase
'demanding wonen make way for them' is the one that resonates.

Sorry, imagine spelling 'women' wrong.

Every single time I discuss this issue online my phone autocorrects women to wonen.

Magenta and other women who do not respect the feelings of other women, I do object to your attitude that has bought us here. Rose as he wants to be, is still a he, with facial hair, a big muscular body, with his male parts in tight black hokey trunks, he looks like a man in a dress, that's why tge verdict was reached I wouldn't want him treating me, wouldn't want to get undressed in front of him and as for asking that nurse three times when she was going to undress, creepy, I have no objection to male nurses, gay nurses, but people like him are a threat to women.

Maremia

Re-reading some of this Thread, the phrase
'demanding wonen make way for them' is the one that resonates.

Yes.
One way and another, women have been expected to manage men's emotions and needs, either through fear, or societal conditioning.
Perhaps it's time for men to learn to "be kind" so that transwomen are not threatened by them? Then the onus is on them rather than on women.

I felt really sorry for the Scottish nurse who was put through hell for asking a doctor, who was still fully male, but was supposedly transgendering, to leave the female changing room.

Here’s a thought that some will obviously find as offensive as I find some TW behaviour.

First, Men who have been chopped are still men, no matter how they dress, act or feel in their head.

Rules about access to female sports, spaces etc. should still apply with or without bits.

But ANY claims by TW that they have changed sex, or gender, should first of all be verified by proof of the removal of their male appendages.

Or removal of the same appendages before any court case can be brought. That would certainly have put a stop to Rose’s behaviour.

I’m sickened by seeing posts with girls with scars across their chests because they believe the lie that it will make them men. It won’t! But they’ve put more effort into their delusion than donning a frock or waving a bit of paper.

How about all TW claimants abusing their own bodies before they abuse the minds or bodies of females.
I don’t doubt this will be reported. I may even be banned, but I feel in my head that it needs suggesting.

Even the removal of male 'bits' does not turn a biological male into a woman - in the same way that castrating a male dog does not turn it into a bitch.

Dickens

Mollygo

Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”
But he didn’t care whether he made women uncomfortable by changing in the “women’s”.
Nice for a man to be able to blame the authority, for making women feel uncomfortable, instead of his own actions.

Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”

The problem though is still men. If other men make Rose feel uncomfortable, then they need to be the ones having pressure put on them to accept and accommodate Rose.

The problem though is still men. If other men make Rose feel uncomfortable, then they need to be the ones having pressure put on them to accept and accommodate Rose.

Simple, isn't it!

ViceVersa

Even the removal of male 'bits' does not turn a biological male into a woman - in the same way that castrating a male dog does not turn it into a bitch.

I agree - it doesn't. But I would concede that someone who has had his sex organs removed and was taking female hormones is probably not a threat to women, and make an exception for fully surgically transitioned men. I am not trying to be unkind to transwomen - I just want to protect women's rights to privacy and dignity and keep women and girls safe from attack.

But.

I can see that the ID problem would be all but insurmountable. A lot of facilities are not staffed - who would look at the ID cards? The likelihood is that transwomen would use the facilities whether they had a card or not, and hope there was nobody checking. There would still be intact males in female spaces. We used to hear pretty constantly about 'what is in their trousers' and be asked how we would police a ban on male interlopers. Well, the tide has turned on that - it's fair to say that it is no longer women's responsibility to come up with a solution to that - it's a blanket ban. If any supporters of trans women's right to be in women's spaces has a solution I'd be interested to hear it though.

I do agree where a 3rd space isn't possible, that men should have the onus put on them as to accommodating transwomen. I can't help wondering why that didn't seem to be considered once all the burden was placed on women. Of course as mentioned up thread transwomen have been with us existing quietly before it was all cranked up and the onus was on women to fight for matters that should never have been challenged. Budge up men! after all urinals specifically are designed for the male anatomy, probably just as easy to avail theirselves of those wearing a dress.

I always liked Michelle Dewberry's take on the matter before the crucial ruling. On walking into a Virgin Active Women's changing room to find a transwoman in there she went straight to the front desk to state "why is there a man in the Women's?" Their mealy mouthed explanation of "we strive to be inclusive" inclusive for whom, not for women. She resigned her membership forthwith. They did of course have to change their policy on that post ruling.

The thing is though - if men did make room for women in their facilities, a lot of transwomen wouldn't be happy. Many believe they are indistinguishable from women, and some (autogynephiles) get a sexual thrill from being thought female. Then there are the ones who just want to dominate women.

Using the Gents' is not going to be acceptable to those groups, and it seems that they are the ones who have added to the 'tiny minority' who have 'always been amongst us', living anonymously. Most women were probably ok with them - the 'Hayley from Coronation Street' ones - as they were harmless and just wanted to fit in and get on with their lives. It's the India Willoughby ones that are the problem - the ones that refuse to use the unisex loos as (in India's words) 'I AM a woman', or the Eddie Izzards who frighten young teens in the Ladies, and/or have the Ladies' emptied so he could use the loo, escorted by theatre employees. They are the problem, and they and their ilk will not be mollified by men allowing them into the male spaces where they belong.

Isn't the most telling part of all these discussions that they always centre on transwomen, never transmen? (The exception being Mollygo's post, and I concur at the heartbreak of all those healthy breasts cut off) All those politicians proudly proclaiming that women can have a penis, without feeling the need to proclaim that men can have a vulva. If anything demonstrates that the focus is men and their wants, needs, demands, then that is it.

ViceVersa

Even the removal of male 'bits' does not turn a biological male into a woman - in the same way that castrating a male dog does not turn it into a bitch.

You’re right, of course, and I never suggested it did turn male into female and castration is not what I suggested.

I also said , Rules about access to female sports, spaces etc. should still apply with or without bits.

However, being obliged to be not just castrated, but all male parts removed before being able to claim you’re a woman might deter some of the frock toting, paper waving males who say they feel like a woman in their head from claiming to be women.

Especially if the punishment of immediate removal of parts could follow any identification of TW in female spaces etc.

TW claiming spaces in women’s prisons?
No but how many demands for that would there be if appendage removal was an essential prerequisite for such placement?

I agree with Doodledog’s assessment that she
can see that the ID problem would be all but insurmountable. A lot of facilities are not staffed - who would look at the ID cards? The likelihood is that transwomen would use the facilities whether they had a card or not, and hope there was nobody checking. There would still be intact males in female spaces.
That’s true, possibly because
for TW, once they’ve lied to themselves, they probably find lying to others easier the more they do it.

There are men who are gentle souls, who treat women with the respect that should be accorded to human beings regardless of their sex; and I'm sure there are transwomen among them.
I do feel a genuine sympathy for them because, as others have said, they simply want to live their lives without fuss and hoo-ha, and of course the recent ruling will make life difficult for them. I don't know what their perception of womanhood actually is, but whatever it is that propels them to identify as one - obviously, they would probably feel more comfortable in a woman's changing room, toilets, etc. Personally, if I knew such an individual, I would be happy to share the space with them, as I was happy to share the intimate proximity with the transwoman who was the leader of the interest group that I once belonged to - but that's because I knew this person, this transwoman who was one of the 'gentle souls' mentioned.
... and that's the issue. We don't know the transwoman who prefers/demands/insists on using the toilet/changing room we've just entered...
Because the TW activists have been so aggressive, so demanding - with threats of violence if we don't concur - we are now in the position where we now regard all transwomen as possible predators.
And the answer is not to tell women that "you most likely wouldn't even know he was a transwoman" or "most transwomen are not a threat", etc, etc - because that is putting the onus, as usual, on women.
The problem is men, their aggression, their threatening and sometimes predatory behaviour, whether they be transwomen or straight men. It is they who have to change. As I said earlier, we have managed their behaviour, their emotions, their wants and needs, since time immemorial probably. It is not up to us to 'budge over' yet again - they have to change. It's not impossible, there are millions of men who have managed without too much fuss or effort to be decent human beings.
It is not our problem, the ball is in their court.

I do agree with the points you've made Dickens.