Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

I agree where men get changed, etc isn't my problem, I am not their mum. Again, the deep ingrained sexism of the movement tries to put the onus on women to solve mens problems.
I also don't care what men have done to their bodies, they are not welcome in women's spaces. It isn't just about risk, ( the risk of violence remains whether a man has a penis or not) it is also about privacy and dignity, we can't consent for the women for whom getting undressed in front of a man would be terrifying.

Good post Dickens.

I also don't think we should make an operation which has life long implications as a criteria for access to spaces. I am of the view that peoplewill look back in horror at these medical interventions.

Galaxy

I also don't think we should make an operation which has life long implications as a criteria for access to spaces. I am of the view that peoplewill look back in horror at these medical interventions.

Maybe so, but the very few men who have surgical transitions are less likely to cause problems for women. That is as far as outsiders can go, IMO - it's not for us to tell others what to do with their bodies. In any case, as there is virtually no way to police it, it is unlikely that surgical transition will ever become a passport to anything.

Very eloquent, Dickens.

It is however up to people to practice medicine that does no harm.
We in terms of medical procedures decide what is appropriate all the time.
It is why we don't give slimming drugs to those with anorexia or carry out lobotomies.
It is in my view just another version of these 'special' group of men are allowed in.

Interesting point, Galaxy.
I wonder, do the procedures happen through the NHS or private facilities?
Yes, there could/should be an ethical dimension.

I think there are very definitely ethical issues when it comes to children getting puberty blockers etc; but adults have, IMO, the right to make decisions of their own.

Maybe it will be that the NHS will not fund the surgery - that is the sort of thing that has to be considered - but I wouldn't like to see the operations disallowed altogether.

But they don't when they involve medical professionals. I can't demand that someone removes my legs because I 'feel' disabled. I don't think surgery will stop because people like me have concerns, I think it will eventually be stopped in the same way lobotomies were because society as a whole realises it is not appropriate treatment.

Dickens wrote ^As I said earlier, we have managed their behaviour, their emotions, their wants and needs, since time immemorial probably. It is not up to us to 'budge over' yet again - they have to change. It's not impossible, there are millions of men who have managed without too much fuss or effort to be decent human beings.
It is not our problem, the ball is in their court.^

Absolutely this. All the way through the trans debate, which must be ten years or now, I’ve been baffled as to why those of us who were born female had to be the problem-solvers for another group’s perceived issues.

SueDonim

All the way through the trans debate, which must be ten years or now, I’ve been baffled as to why those of us who were born female had to be the problem-solvers for another group’s perceived issues.

I suppose it's a bit of a pet-peeve for me. I discussed it once some time ago - as you point out, this has been going on for years - with my now late ex-partner. I asked him if he thought men were inherently 'lazy' emotionally and intellectually. I can't remember his exact words, but he said something to the effect that he didn't think men were inherently lazy, rather that women had had no choices really because they suffered the consequences if they didn't anticipate or manage, or even manipulate, men's behaviour and emotions. Which he thought divested them of their responsibility to behave like civilised human beings.

But, as Galaxy pointed out - this particular aspect of the issue isn't just about the possible/perceived threat of men in women's spaces - it's also to do with dignity and sensitivity. Women, and young girls, must have the right to dress or undress/use facilities etc without the presence of men.
The other day, I had to have an ultrasound of my lower leg. I'd dressed in jeans and a long tunic top but needed to remove the jeans. Even though I had on a very long top which virtually came down to my knees, the male sonographer motioned with his hand towards a screen where I could remove my trousers - even though he wouldn't have seen anything as I pulled them down, he was sensitive to the mere act of undressing. I appreciated that gesture.

It is not our problem, the ball is in their (men’s) court.

I agree, but those men who aren’t a problem don't see it like that unless and until it affects them.

Those men TW or not, who are a problem, don’t care.

Those women who excuse the men on the grounds that they’re not all like that are part of the problem.

Mollygo

^It is not our problem, the ball is in their (men’s) court.^

I agree, but those men who aren’t a problem don't see it like that unless and until it affects them.

Those men TW or not, who are a problem, don’t care.

Those women who excuse the men on the grounds that they’re not all like that are part of the problem.

I hear you.

But if we refuse to let it be our problem - it will just have to be theirs.

None of this will be easy, but when have such matters ever been so, for women anyway.

The 'not-all-men' debate has been thoroughly aired. We know it's not all men, but the fact that we can't know who they are, IMO, makes that argument pointless.

The other thing to point out us this has been going on for much longer than we think. In 1995 vancouver rape relief was sued by a man identifying as a woman as they tried to prevent him being a counsellor for vulnerable women. Thirty years ago.
I am afraid I am sceptical about the idea of a golden age when transsexuals just wanted to quietly live their own lives.

Galaxy
I am afraid I am sceptical about the idea of a golden age when transsexuals just wanted to quietly live their own lives.

For a long time here on GN threads there has been a multiplicity of posters who know trans people who want to claim just that.
Of course none of their trans acquaintances, family members, etc would ever do anything harmful.

The only trans I have met have been ill intentioned, but at one time, declaring that on here would have immediately been labelled transphobic.
That word was always incorrectly used. It’s not an irrational fear.

Interesting that though fear has been mentioned, the phobia words hasn’t been used so far on this thread.

That's is an unfair comment, about folk who know transpeople who do and wish no harm.
However, I, like many of the Posters on this Thread, are against the pushy 'perverts' seeking to invade female spaces, for non genuine reasons.
Problem is, how to tell them apart?
For that reason, I prefer to go for female safety.

There is no genuine reason to go into a womans space as a man.

And there is no way to know who means 'harm' and who does not.
Finding a safe place for trans people is a management issue. Not an issue for female staff.
If it is Government policy, that places be provided, then demand Government funding.

There is nothing to suggest that a transwoman nurse would be in any way unsafe in the male changing rooms is there? Why wouldn't they change in the room that aligns with their sex, as they really should be cognisant of the basics, nobody in the history of the world has ever changed their sex.

I don't think (and didn't suggest) that there was a golden age. I said that there are some transwomen who are not TRAs and do not want to dominate women. At one time they made up the majority, and generally preferred to be inconspicuous.

It was, IMO, when Stonewall got going and pushed the coercive agenda (insisting on declaring pronouns etc) that the 'time minority' suddenly became more numerous and it became more about making a point than about someone who thought he was a woman using the loo. The last thing the 'Hayleys' wanted was to be called out on their maleness, but Eddie and India appear to enjoy the fuss.

That's not an 'idea' of a golden age - it's an observation of how the politics have shifted.

'Coercive agenda' good phrase. Pretty much most of what is concerning.

Maremia

'Coercive agenda' good phrase. Pretty much most of what is concerning.

Yes, a good description of what is happening too, Doodledog

Men coercively controlling women's safe spaces.

There was a thread over on MN yesterday entitled "New trans equality civil servant at the Cabinet Office to focus on the "implications" of 2025's Supreme Court judgement" can't help thinking this government would backtrack wherever they could find the means to do so.

Has anything actually been implemented yet? Especially in the NHS?

I believe Bridget Phillipson has not rolled out guidance to businesses on the matter. I believe she has also been quoted as saying that the ruling is "trans exclusive" and claimed that it would prevent mothers from taking their young sons into changing rooms. Most swimming pools have had the policy of allowing boys up to 7 to be in the women's changing room with their mother. That was certainly the case when my children were young. I think she's prevaricating on the grounds that she doesn't personally agree with the judgement. So much for the party line, we must obey the letter of the law.