Not ‘ school-ready’.

Daddima

watermeadow

Children here start school earlier than most countries. Summer-born children are only just four when they start full-time formal school. It’s too soon for those slow to mature or from bad homes.

Cut off date for school in Scotland is being 5 by the end of February, so when school starts in August the youngest are four and a half, the oldest five and a half, so a just turned four year old would be unlikely to start school.

The cut off date in the U.K. is 31st August.

So if school begins the first week in September they are four and a few days.

I have a GC in this position.

Looking at some adults on TV many don't know how to use cutlery or hold a pen properly.

So if school begins the first week in September they are four and a few days.I have a GC in this position.

Has your grand daughter been to pre-school,nursery or play-group?
Staff do know this, that there are children barely over four; some have been in nursery education since they were two, with much longer days than the school day.

eazybee

^So if school begins the first week in September they are four and a few days.I have a GC in this position.^

Has your grand daughter been to pre-school,nursery or play-group?
Staff do know this, that there are children barely over four; some have been in nursery education since they were two, with much longer days than the school day.

I agree, they started pre-school at 2 1/2.

Two full days, coming home to me at lunchtime.

Agree that staff are aware of ages and pre-school/nursery experience.

What I am trying to say (obviously badly) is why it’s not being recognised that children develop at different ages, dependent on many factors.

Oops their hours were 8.45 - 12.00 lunch 12.45 - 3.15pm.

grandMattie

I blame disposable nappies. It’s so much easier to just shove another one on…

But a lot of parents expect “the school” to bring up their children- toothbrushing, table manners, reading, toilet training.

Me too. When women had to wash and dry terry nappies - often with no automatic washing machine, let alone a tumble dryer - there was a much greater incentive to get on with it.

Sarnia

Sign of the times, I'm afraid. I feel so sad when I see young Mums with a small child in a buggy who is being completely ignored because Mum is more interested with her phone than to interact with her little one.
I think schools should refuse to accept children who are not toilet trained. Unless a child has development issues there is no excuse for a 4-5 year old not being dry and clean. If parents were told their child could not go to school they would soon buck their ideas up. It should never be the Reception teacher's job.

I'm with you on that one. No child should be taking extra attention from a teacher because the parents couldnt be bothered to bring them up properly - eg toilet-training them.

I'd certainly refuse to deal with it on an individual level if I were the teacher concerned and being expected to do more than just teach the child.

I sorta thought children were toilet-trained at around 18 months old?? Though, not being a mother, I wouldnt be sure on that - but it's the sort of age I thought it should be done.

I don't get it - considering that ever since the 1970s it should be "Every child a wanted child" and so, if they wanted it, then why didnt they do that?

"The cut off date in the U.K. is 31st August." Not all of the UK.

"In Scotland, the school year begins in mid-August. Any single school year group consists of children born between the beginning of March in one year and the end of February the following year. Children born between March and August start school in the August of, or following, their fifth birthday. Those born between September and February start school in the August prior to their fifth birthday. As such, children in Scotland usually start school between the ages of 4.5 and 5.5 years old.

However, parents of children born between September and December can request to defer their child's entry to the following August. These deferrals are not automatic and are subject to approval by the local education authority. Parents of children born in January and February may also choose to defer their child's entry; these requests are automatically approved. Children with birthdays in January and February and whose entry to school is deferred are eligible for a further year of funded pre-school education whereas those with September to December birthdays who are deferred are not. Children whose entry is deferred will tend to be aged between 5.5 and 6 years old at the time they start school."
www.gov.scot/publications/growing-up-scotland-early-experiences-primary-school/pages/4/

I sorta thought children were toilet-trained at around 18 months old?? Though, not being a mother, I wouldnt be sure on that - but it's the sort of age I thought it should be done.

Thst's dependent on the child.

Probably too early. They might regress.

eazybee

^So if school begins the first week in September they are four and a few days.I have a GC in this position.^

Has your grand daughter been to pre-school,nursery or play-group?
Staff do know this, that there are children barely over four; some have been in nursery education since they were two, with much longer days than the school day.

I have a DGC who started school at 4 + 2 days.
She was toilet trained, could feed herself, knew how to use books, do puzzles, play games etc. including simple word and number games.
Pre-school play group, parents, grandparents all contributing to this.

DH thinks perhaps a parent should be called into school every time a nappy needed changing. They might soon train their child then.

I worked 10 years in a nursery at a Primary School(retired 2023).
Children could start at 3 years old were in reception early years at age of 4.
When i first started in the Nursery the new September intakes were toilet trained with occasional accidents which were expected,we dealt with it kindly.
The last three years working there was a huge decline in some children starting not toilet trained and thought it was normal to eat midday cooked meal with their hands.
Didnt know how to use a small knife or fork.
Some parents didnt seem to think it was important to toilet train their children.
One couple spoken too replied thats not up to them, Nursery Staff should do it.
It was quite stressful as for every child that had a toilet accident two members of staff had to be there when the child was changed.
That took one staff member away from Nursery Room leaveing that understaffed.
The parents were offered help, a lady would come into nursery and speak to parents and try and help.
These meetings were held occasionally
But no parents turned up!!
It wasnt just not being toilet trained, it was lack of eating skills with cutlery, and not able to dress themselves.
I expect Parents have to work and just dont find the time.
But they should make time.
I have 3 children all in 40s.
When i decided it was time to toilet train i dedicated a whole week of not going anywhere.
That was toilet training week.
Maybe i was lucky as they learnt very quickly.
And i didnt return to work til they all stsrted school.
It does take time and lots of patience.
Everytime i hear this on the news etc it reminds me.

I regularly see a Mum coming out of school with her daughter who looks about 5 or 6. The minute she comes out the mother pushes a big dummy in the child’s mouth! I have checked with another mum and the child does not have SEN. likewise phones - kids are getting ignored or trail behind their mums on their phones.

My three AC & spouses with families have all worked FT as their little ones grew up. All six GC began school toilet trained, able to feed and dress themselves and hold a conversation, including the one who began school at 4yrs + 10 days of age. Four of the six also had the pandemic disruption to contend with. Blaming working parents for children not being ‘school-ready’ is ludicrous. It’s inadequate parenting, whatever the cause, that is responsible.

Given that all pre-school children can now access free nursery, where, ime, children are helped with toileting/feeding, literacy and so on, it’s baffling that non-special needs children are going to school without these skills.

The percentage of children not ready for *school has increased, 37% I think, in today’s news. Over 25% are not toilet trained.

That includes SEN kids who don't get a diagnosis under 5 untill they've done 6 months worth of preschool, which is advised so that unfortunately forces the percentages up.

I have checked with another mum and the child does not have SEN.

Why would they know the medical history of a child?! Let alone their disabilies.

GrannyGravy13

Yes Doodledog I remember that time as DD is coming up to 33.

How about considering that children develop at different times.

Especially those born 2019/2020/2021 the so called COVID babies, had little to no baby activities, no play dates, there were no play centres or even parks open.

We do not know how the lockdowns affected their parent/s and other family members.

I do know of men sitting in their cars waiting to be summoned to the delivery room at the very last minute. Their wives left to Labour on their own without any emotional support, with overworked midwifery staff.

The experts are only just finding out the consequences of the above.

Yes, my niece had two Covid babies. One was about 18 months when the first lockdown hit, and the other was born during a lockdown. Neither of them had playmates, nursery/toddler groups - I'm not sure they even had Health Visitor visits, and were cooped up for long periods. The second baby spent some time in special care, and Dad couldn't visit - he was there for the birth, but had to leave straight afterwards to care for the toddler and wasn't allowed back in.

Niece is a very engaged mum, and both children came through, but it was a very difficult time.

And yes - regardless of circumstances children do develop at different times and in different ways. They also have two parents each, and blaming the mums is very unfair.

This thread isn't about being ready for school- it's about toilet training.

I started school not long long after my 4th birthday. At home I used the toilet without issues.

When I started school I didn't understand where the toilets were, when I could use them or even how. School was a completely alien place and no one had got me 'ready.'

Because of my anxiety of being in this strange place I messed my pants. My big sister was called from the top class- she was angry and embarrassed by me and never forgot that she had to 'clean me up.'

Did it happen again? No, but when I was a teacher in a secondary school many years later we had students who wet themselves, and even one who would defaecate in various spots around the school.

He later committed suicide.

I am not sure why people have to 'show off' that they were so good at potty training their kids- fair enough but what does 'school ready' actually mean?

Sign of the times, I'm afraid. I feel so sad when I see young Mums with a small child in a buggy who is being completely ignored because Mum is more interested with her phone than to interact with her little one.

Or she could have older children in school?
Adding money to their dinner card.
Answering their message.
Forgot their PE kit.
Ordering a revision guide
Reading the report
Booking parents evening
Putting a food shop through
Sending pics
Paying a bill
Replying to a text
Finishing an email to a teacher...
Reading another bulletin
PSHE bulletin
Parent pay!

More support before children start school in the early years is crucial – both for pupils and for families. As this report points out, it can be overwhelming for parents to know where to start and what to prioritise. Early identification and intervention to support children with SEND would also make a big difference – increasing levels of Send will be partly causing these rising numbers.

Early identification and intervention to support children with SEND would also make a big difference – increasing levels of Send will be partly causing these rising numbers.

Disabled kids are increasing the percentage because it's taking so long to diagnose them they are going without support.

This must vary from area to area as in my locality diagnosis is not required for access for support in schools. I absolutely appreciate that the wait for diagnosis is very long.

Primrose53

I regularly see a Mum coming out of school with her daughter who looks about 5 or 6. The minute she comes out the mother pushes a big dummy in the child’s mouth! I have checked with another mum and the child does not have SEN. likewise phones - kids are getting ignored or trail behind their mums on their phones.

Why on earth do people have children if they're not going to be interested in them and try and parent them appropriately?

Are they having them as some sort of "get out of jail free" card in the hope of being a parent means they think (mistakenly I'm sure) that they'll get an easier life. A sort of means of access to getting onto a Council housing list (well I was in my 20's when I asked a Labour Party councillor what the procedure was to get onto that list and his perfectly serious answer was "Get pregnant maid") - but I doubt that has much impact at all these days. Followed by a means of not getting hassled to try and get off the dole queue ("Can't you see I'm bringing up children? Gimme more money...whoops I've just had an extra one...so gimme yet more money"). Children are supposed to be planned and wanted - and then brought up properly and I've comforted a desperate would-be mother crying her eyes out because she was genuinely desperate to have one and thought she couldnt (10 years of trying later at that point - and she did duly have that child at that point and I could see that child had been brought up well when she brought her into work to show her off some years later).

Why on earth do people have them if they don't want them? Totally irresponsible imo.

Quite apart from having to go through pregnancy and childbirth (with sometimes lasting effects on one's body from that) one would think any halfway responsible person would think = I've got to teach them how to feed themselves, potty train them, teach them how to dress, teach them basic manners ("If you can't manage to say 'thank you' yet = you can say 'Ta'). It strikes me - as an outsider - as a far from easy life having to teach children all those basics before they start school - but that's the deal isn't it?!

GrannyGravy13

I think it’s a combination of things, two parents working long hours and consequently always exhausted and running to catch up with home life. Often dealing with older siblings, clubs, homework etc.

Toddlers/infants in full time childcare facilities. I remember when mine were in nursery I informed them when I was potty training and what method I was using and they were happy to continue when with them.

Along with the new type disposable nappies, being so efficient that babies and toddlers do not feel wet

The ages of those starting in reception range from just 4 to just 5 years old.

Whilst this is as growing number, it has always been the case of some children not being fully trained when going to school.

I am not sure I agree. My MiL was a reception class teacher in a deprived area of a small town. She retired in the late 1970s. We once discussed this issue and she said, then, children coming to school not yet potty trained were rare - and there was usually a very good reason for it.

I am also not sure I buy 'two parents working long hours and always exhausted. yes, there are some parents in that situation, but plenty that aren't.

In the UK the average adult spends about 5 hours a day watching a screen, for leisure uses. This does not include work use. Even accepting that parents of young children will watch less, it doesn't suggest thaat the majority of parents are too tired and exhausted to make sure their children can take them selves to the toilet before hey start school.

When my two DC were three years old they could go to the nursery associated to the primary school but they had to be able to use the toilet independently and could not go to nursery in nappies. As these were only half day attendances the only food they had was a drink and a biscuit or fruit, no meals were served. But my two were eating by themselves long before their third birthday anyway.
I realise that there are some extreme circumstances as in SEN children and physical disabilities that add to the challenges for parents but on the whole, isn’t teaching a child how to use a loo and hold cutlery a basic life skill? Why are so many parents leaving it everyone else?

I am just too lazy to want to have children of 3 plus not able to feed themselves/not potty trained etc. No wonder parents are so short of time, when they are constantly needing to change nappies on 3 - 5 year olds, let alone feed them.

Mind you we need to remember that the majority of children starting school do not have these problems