Not ‘ school-ready’.

Children always did develop at different ages and parents have always worked.( I'm thinking of war times,factory workers etc) What's changed? No reason for normal children not to be toilet trained by school age or unable to use cutlery.

Most parents of small children I know as well as my ACs seem to be very aware of the milestones their children need to reach and are quite competitive about it, reading their little ones amusing books about potty training before starting and having a sticker system for when they use a potty/toilet.
If anything I think the majority of parents today are quite fixated on meeting milestones and then posting it on social media.

How do so many people know what the majority of parents do, or more intriguingly why they do it?

Being a parent can be hard work (although very rewarding) and it’s difficult enough for parents juggling so many things (running a home, bringing them up, working and/or managing a career, keeping a marriage interesting, getting children to where they need to be at different times of the day, maintaining their own interests etc etc) without people - many of whom did nothing outside of the home when their own children were young, and who let them play outside for hours - criticising things they don’t understand.

Why not try to understand instead of criticising?

Because it is a disaster for the children.

Very good post Doodledog. Of course there are some lazy parents as there are lazy people in all walks of life, but also parents who actually need help. Maybe dont have relatives close by to advise. The denise of Sure Start is a shame.
I hope the mother in an earlier post above who thought dinner ladies fed the children with a spoon was invited to come in and watch a dinner session. She may have learned from it and seen how children were able to use cutlery and feed themselves.

I was a stay at home mum for several years and marvel at how women (mostly) cope with working full time outside the home with young families. I expect some despair of their children ever being toilet trained if they are slow to catch on. I was lucky my DDs were quick, but some are not.

In France children cannot start school, which is compulsory at age 3, without bring toilet trained or vaccinated. Seems to work fine.

We know, Doodledog, because some of us have spent forty years working with young children and their parents; through our own childhoods and experience as working mothers. This phenomenon of young children arriving at school untrained is relatively new, as are is the plethora of excuses. How on earth did mothers do it when there was limited indoor sanitation, and absolutely no Sure Start? Mothers living in the worst conditions frequently did work then, and they would have been ashamed to behave as some mothers are now.

Mamie

In France children cannot start school, which is compulsory at age 3, without bring toilet trained or vaccinated. Seems to work fine.

My definition of a "parsons egg" there Mamie - ie good in parts.

Good that they have to be toilet-trained.

Bad that = how does one get round the fact if you've decided not to have them vaccinated? (do you have to send them to a private school or home-educate them if they've not been jabbed?).

PoppyBlue

*I have checked with another mum and the child does not have SEN.*

Why would they know the medical history of a child?! Let alone their disabilies.

The kids are in the same class and the child in question does not have or need additional support.

CariadAgain

Mamie

In France children cannot start school, which is compulsory at age 3, without bring toilet trained or vaccinated. Seems to work fine.

My definition of a "parsons egg" there Mamie - ie good in parts.

Good that they have to be toilet-trained.

Bad that = how does one get round the fact if you've decided not to have them vaccinated? (do you have to send them to a private school or home-educate them if they've not been jabbed?).

There are very few private schools (mostly religious) and whilst home education is no longer banned, it is very tightly regulated. There are 11 compulsory vaccinations pre school and only medical reasons for exemption.
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity are still very important here and you are expected to do your part as a good citizen. You do your best for the state and in return the state looks after you.
My experience after 20 years here is that French people love to protest, but in the end they do as they are told.
I remember all the people saying they would never have a Covid vaccination, until they did. 😂

There is too much poor parenting these days. I was in a health centre this morning when a youngish couple came in with a baby boy. I would say 9 months old.

It is a chilly morning and the parents were wearing big duvet coats. The poor child was just in a little top and trousers and socks and a bib. Not even a warm cardigan, hat or mittens.

I can’t imagine getting myself all snuggled up in a big coat but not thinking about my child getting cold.

This is my first month in retirement after working in pre school room for 24 years. This is totally true. It’s pure laziness on the parents part and they are more interested in just giving in to them as he or she mostly boys aren’t ready? The children in my class could not attend our room till toilet trained for many years. But now they are allowed and our teacher child ratios have been affected terrible with this. It’s a no win situation and heavily reflects on the parents laziness to toilet train. I would be mortified if my child went to school with a nappy on.

I was working in primary education over twenty years ago and the staff were warning how unready children were for starting school even then. Their warnings weren’t taken notice of and now there’s a bigger issue if not a crisis.
In retirement I now volunteer for online reading support through the Bookmark charity and it’s sadly common to work with children who have no books at home and never read to parents….but some of the older ones eg 9 years up, have phones and use some social media.

When I trained as a primary teacher half a century ago, I attended a lecturer by the leading primary school expert at the time about children being toilet trained at school. He said the worst case he has come across was a child at school having to wear nappies and the mother having to come in and change them. The school simply refused to. How come 50 years ago we were more advanced than we are today in that area? Because potty training was treated as a disciplined routine tied to school readiness.

There's a bit more to this I think. Part of the problem is that schools now have nursery classes and children are going to school age 3+.
My grandson went to the nursery attached to the school at that age, moving from a small private nursery where children were cared for by a very small teacher:child ratio (3:1 I think) to a setting where 50 children (nursery and reception combined) are cared for by one teacher and 2 teaching assistants - in this environment even children who are "toilet trained" start having accidents - a combination of complete overwhelm, shyness about asking for help, and simple practicalities such as not being sure how to get to the toilets all combine to make a very difficult environment for the children.
I agree that there are always parents with the wrong focus - but most are very good parents.
It was easier for us - life was not so frenetic 20/30 years ago and children didn't have to enter semiformal education settings so young. None of my children went to school until they were 5 - they were at nursery or with child minders or my mum or me - and we all had the luxury of being able to focus more than today's parents.
It's very sad, and I really believe we have the early years care/ education model very wrong in the UK and it's damaging our little ones

Grandmabatty

I worked full time when my children were small and managed to toilet train them and teach them how to fasten their jacket and shoes. My daughter and son in law have managed to do it with their boys, despite working long hours. I think it's an excuse and something else some parents leave for schools to do

Totally agree with you. Having worked with pre school children for a number of years it is disturbing how many parents do not do the basics of toilet training, dressing, sitting to eat using cutlery etc before school but expect others to sort it. Too many, very young children, are now kept "entertained" by phones and tablets and have no idea how to interact with their cohorts let alone other adults. It is very disturbing and I think sad.

To people saying children go to school much earlier now ……
They don’t have to go at age 3 or 4. If parents feel they are not ready then they can keep them at home. If they want them to go at such a young age then prepare and train them.

Sorry I think a lot of it is laziness , it goes hand in Hand with reading to the children, they are given screens all the time , also it follows on with not bothering to cook and getting take ways . It is so sad that some women do not value bringing up children, it’s the most important thing you can do . Yes I know a lot of people work but you should prioritise the children

I'll only add to the toilet training argument by saying that even toilet trained children can have accidents at school and that some children find it easier than others. That I know from exoerience as a parent and grandparent.
As for books and devices: today's tablets are yesterday's chalk and slate.
Once children were castigated for always having their nose in a book. Now some say that it's sad that a device seems preferable/more useable than a book. In a world where everything seems to be online and being on the internet is desirable, I don't think that we can lament a bygone age.

If you have a mortgage and children I’d say it’s nigh on impossible for most to just have one salary/wage coming in.

That said, myself, my 2 daughters and daughter-in-law have all worked while having young children. All of them were school ready and out of nappies before 3 or shortly after. All could use cutlery and were all read to each day and had great vocabularies. The only slight blip was with GD3 who was 4 years and 4 days when she started school and I’m not sure she was emotionally ready as she was quite anxious and she needed speech therapy as her speech was rather unclear which helped immensely. To my surprise GS2 who can be —naughty— rather assertive started in September at 4 years 5 months and took to school like a duck to water. Unusually, he has a male teacher whom he really likes. 2/3 of the intake were boys this year.

One difference is that my DS and my sons-in-law have all been immensely helpful and supportive. I was largely on my own working and running the household as my DH thought his work far more important than mine. Different times, lots of men were like that at the time.

Mamie

CariadAgain

Mamie

In France children cannot start school, which is compulsory at age 3, without bring toilet trained or vaccinated. Seems to work fine.

My definition of a "parsons egg" there Mamie - ie good in parts.

Good that they have to be toilet-trained.

Bad that = how does one get round the fact if you've decided not to have them vaccinated? (do you have to send them to a private school or home-educate them if they've not been jabbed?).

There are very few private schools (mostly religious) and whilst home education is no longer banned, it is very tightly regulated. There are 11 compulsory vaccinations pre school and only medical reasons for exemption.
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity are still very important here and you are expected to do your part as a good citizen. You do your best for the state and in return the state looks after you.
My experience after 20 years here is that French people love to protest, but in the end they do as they are told.
I remember all the people saying they would never have a Covid vaccination, until they did. 😂

Not a country I'm familiar with. Now trying to remember what nationality a man here that I bumped into/had a long chat with one time was from - because I was highly amused at his description of us. His comment was "You British - everyone thinks you are so passive and quiet - until you aren't! If you do strongly decide on something - then watch the British go and they will fight". That was about the gist of it - ie how determined we can be if we make up our minds.

He obviously found it amusing to have noted that about us.

Errrrm.....I wasn't going to disagree with him - being someone myself who "Once I make up my mind = that's It!".
I know lots who said they weren't going to have that jab - including me. Most of us indeed didn't have it - including me and it's firmly in our minds as "That is our decision to make - one way or another". There were one or two who lied and kept a bit quiet about it. But basically the vast majority of us that said we weren't going to do so didn't do so. I know of about 1 or 2 liars and have come across 3 who got blackmailed into it by an employer (eg carers). So - yep - by and large we did (or didnt) do exactly what we'd said......

I'm only too glad I was/am retired and so no question of any employer trying to blackmail me into it. I'm about 90% certain my response would have been "See you in court then for unfairly dismissing me - hope you've got your chequebook ready...as I'm after compensation for that". Another 5% of my thoughts being "Well if that's their attitude and they intend to do that on me = not much point on trying to do that to a corpse - I'm quite ready to leave Earth sooner than have someone else make my decisions for me". I'm pretty sure I would have seen no point in staying put if even my own personal major decisions were getting made for me and imposed on me and I was a seething little ball of anger ......and people have found out before now that it wasn't a good idea to try and find out how strongwilled I can be if need be. You know that fact is not exactly under wraps when someone from elsewhere in the country you've never met rings you up about a query of yours you asked them and are killing themselves laughing at the end of the phone saying "What on earth have you done to so-and-so - as he's swearing blue murder about you?". I'd never met the man concerned....

So I think a fair number of us do mean what we say when it comes to it...and pushing us too far is not a good idea LOL.

I know I also noticed the increase in divorces going on around me at that time too - one of the divorcees had put one of them in a caravan some distance down their farm whilst the other half lived in the house (as they had opposite viewpoints on it all). Yep..that was.one of the divorces. I was very glad I was single - as I watched all the "crashing and burning" of relationships going on around me.

IMO this has nothing to do with both parents working full time and everything to do with the modern theories about bringing up children from birth to school-age.

I have lived in Denmark since 1970, a period of time that co-incided with Danish parents both working full time and having children who from the age of three months or thereabouts were in creches during their parents' working day and from the age of 3 in kindergarten.

Until around 1990, children of 3 were not allowed to start in kindergarten unless they were toilet trained. No-one thought this unreasonable and nearly all children were toilet trained at 3.

Ten years ago, when a young woman I know had a baby she was told in no uncertain terms by the health visitor when the boy was 18 months that she MUST NOT begin toilet training at that early age. She objected, as the creche staff were so over-worked that they only changed dirty nappies - wet ones were just ignored, so her child was sitting all day in a soaking wet nappy. But his mother was firmly told that no child can control its bladder before the age of 3, as the body does not produce the hormone that controls the spincter before that age.

This may be so, but my mother always proudly said I was out of nappies before I was eighteen months old, my younger sister most assuredly was, and her three children too, and none of us have been affected by the dire consequences of early potty-training used to scare young parents into leaving the matter well alone now until their children are at least 3.

Now we are seeing children in nappies at the age of four, which does not affect kindergarten classes in school so much here, as children are six or seven when starting school.

On the matter of books - there have always been children who started school unable to hold a pencil or ever having seen a book. This has little to do with the computer age as such, but much more to do with the level of literacy in the home.

If the parents' only reading matter are the local supermarkets' advert mags. you cannot expect their children to know what a book is - and there are still adults who never read anything, especially now, where reading newspapers is not an everyday matter - the news is heard or viewed on TV or online.

We were seeing this 30 years ago when I was teaching. Children were coming in on reins, unable to open food in lunch boxes, unable to use cutlery and an increase incontinence when they started reception and many had never seen reading material. This was before the advent of social media. It just seemed like children weren’t being supported enough by their parents and nursery schools were not the norm or funded so they weren’t learning there. Mothers were allowed to stay home on benefits until the child was 11.
I just think we have got lazy as a society taking the path of least resistance when it comes to boundaries, relationships and responsibility.
Ending SureStart was a mistake, the reduction in Health Visitor appointments and the building up of relationships with a trusted professional has made things so much worse.

AuntieE you make a very valid point.

Child raising experts now advocate child led weaning, leading direct to finger food, no need for cutlery.

The same for potty training, let the infant decide when it’s ready to be dry. Some even suggest asking your babies permission to change, bathe them etc.

With so much conflicting information out there it’s no surprise that there is a vast difference in age suggested attainment.

I left Primary teaching over 20 years ago. Things were bad even then. It's heartbreaking.