Astra Zeneca Vaccine

Larium has been discontinued for malaria now, I believe, as it was so unsafe.

We took malaria tablets because my dh’s work was in countries where it was endemic and it was safer than getting ill. I was shocked when a UK embassy representative told us how many expats died or were very ill with malaria each year. It wasn’t a small number.

I heard of people that stopped taking the malaria tablets when they got home and got sick (may have died: can’t remember, it was ages ago).

We had to take malaria tablets for 6 weeks November/December 2019, DH was fine throughout but after 3 weeks I felt iffy and by the time we got home I rang GP to ask if I could stop as I now felt dreadful they said no so I carried on regardless.

Hasn’t deterred me from travelling and having to take them again though!

With many drugs, we learn more and more as time goes by and as said above, sometimes drugs are withdrawn or prescribing criteria changed. That’s all part of pharmacovigilence which has vastly improved over the years. To learn more about very rare side effects as a vaccine is rolled out to huge numbers, is to be expected and actually I’d find it odd if that hadn’t happened - which is why I found some of the negative reactions to Norway and Denmark’s concerns last month beyond silly.
For me the takeaway from today is the very obvious one that as the risks of the vaccine start to outweigh its benefits, you change advice. The point at which this happens given our knowledge to date is around the age of 30.

You’re supposed to carry on taking malaria tablets for a certain length of time after you get home, Maybee.

We all took them for five years. Worst side effect for me was mouth ulcers. I met an expat couple who’d been taking them for over 50 years! They said they felt they were actually in more danger of getting malaria today than back when they first started living in the country. When they’d moved there, local government carried out monthly inspections to identify possible malaria -bearing pools of water. She once got a huge row from a hygiene official because she’d left a jam jar on the windowsill with some children’s paint brushes soaking in water! No one does that now and consequently there are many more areas where water can lurk, such as inside abandoned car tyres or discarded plastic bags.

Well, my first jab was AZ and I shall take my chances and accept the second AZ jab when it comes. My husband is a statistician and he hasn't voiced any concerns based on the figures he's seen. I also wonder if there's another causal factor linked to the blood clots, and I'm suspicious about why AZ vaccine is being talked down in this way.

Kerenhappuch

Well, my first jab was AZ and I shall take my chances and accept the second AZ jab when it comes. My husband is a statistician and he hasn't voiced any concerns based on the figures he's seen. I also wonder if there's another causal factor linked to the blood clots, and I'm suspicious about why AZ vaccine is being talked down in this way.

You aren’t taking any chances in any meaningful sense as the risks of Covid outweigh the risks of the vaccine, With the under 30s they are taking a very very cautious approach. Why on Earth would the MHRA talk down the AZ vaccine? Really ?

I read on the BBC news that the 19 who died were aged between 18 and 79, three were under 30. I didn’t really expected anybody over 50.

One of the first things said at the EMA press briefing was that they found no difference in sex, age or preexisting conditions.

I cannot remember who asked, but CVST incidences are recorded. A friend of mine had a series of CVST strokes at the age of 34 which left her with severe disability. The following info is from the John Hopkins website. CVST is a rare form of stroke. It affects about 5 people in 1 million each year. The risk for this kind of stroke in newborns is greatest during the first month. Overall, about 3 out of 300,000 children and teens up to age 18 will have a stroke.

Anybody who works with stroke survivors will probably have come across CVST. I did voluntary work with a charity helping survivors for many years.

suziewoozie

One of the first things said at the EMA press briefing was that they found no difference in sex, age or preexisting conditions.

That’s interesting. I didn’t manage to see the broadcast, and haven’t even seen any news yet tonight. The only information I’ve seen is via Gransnet and so the facts of no difference in age groups, gender, or pre-existing conditions is very interesting, given the prominence given to age groups in previous news.

That’s reassuring Suzie.
Very interesting Blossoming I had no idea of CSVT, especially in babies and youngsters!

Yes maddy it shows the dangers of leaking beforehand

Interesting blossoming. Thanks.

What constitutes the word "rare?"
1 in 100,000
3 in 100,000
10 in 100,000

Have these people suffered a blood clot straight after the vaccine or weeks later I wonder ? I had my first injection yesterday after it came on the morning news & was still assured that there was no link . Scary , we are the trial

BlueSky it’s more common in under 18s, so I can understand the concerns. There’s usually an underlying condition such as APS, sickle cell anaemia or Crohns. I know one young lady who wasn’t diagnosed with APS until after her CVST.

GrannyTracey

Have these people suffered a blood clot straight after the vaccine or weeks later I wonder ? I had my first injection yesterday after it came on the morning news & was still assured that there was no link . Scary , we are the trial

Heard from reputable source on radio this evening that it can happen between 4-28 days after vaccine with a median time o& 14 days

Ellianne

Interesting blossoming. Thanks.

What constitutes the word "rare?"
1 in 100,000
3 in 100,000
10 in 100,000

This is the globally used definition of describing risks with medication. This blood clot risk is described as very rare

Description of the frequency of side-effects
Very commongreater than 1 in 10
Common1 in 100 to 1 in 10
Uncommon [formerly 'less commonly' in BNF publications]1 in 1000 to 1 in 100
Rare1 in 10 000 to 1 in 1000
Very rareless than 1 in 10 000
Frequency not knownfrequency is not defined by product literature or the side-effect has been reported from post-marketing surveillance data

Just heard from DD. They, as a family, sat down over dinner and discussed the AZ situation. Upshot is - with 16 year olds final say- that he will have the second AZ shot. If the clinicians offer it. DD says she will take what’s offered. SiL will have second AZ shot and eldest GS at 20 will have what is offered.

They have all it seems decided that covid is the worse option.

suziewoozie

One of the first things said at the EMA press briefing was that they found no difference in sex, age or preexisting conditions.

But that's not true. There were more females than males (albeit on very small numbers, so perhaps not statistically significant). Fewer under 30s have been vaccinated, so the number who have died is proportionately higher. However, there are other variables such as the medical history of the younger people who have been vaccinated. The total numbers involved are still very low.

As these younger people would have had the vaccine before their roll out age, were they vulnerable with underlying conditions? I guess some if not all, as most medical personnel would have had the Pfizer earlier on the roll out.

growstuff

suziewoozie

One of the first things said at the EMA press briefing was that they found no difference in sex, age or preexisting conditions.

But that's not true. There were more females than males (albeit on very small numbers, so perhaps not statistically significant). Fewer under 30s have been vaccinated, so the number who have died is proportionately higher. However, there are other variables such as the medical history of the younger people who have been vaccinated. The total numbers involved are still very low.

Sorry - they said they couldn’t confirm sex, age or preexisting conditions as specific risk factors. That’s more accurate than what I first posted. Yes you’re right, the numbers are far far too small to be statistically significant. The absolute numbers of how many of which sex, age etc are to all intents and purposes meaningless at this stage. As they said, cases were found in both sexes and a range of ages. That’s all that can be said.

Blue in terms of younger people having the vaccine, remember all the front line Health and Social care workers who have been vaccinated of whom some would be under 30

But as the EMA said, all they can really say is that they can’t rule out a link , not that there is a link, between the vaccine and this specific type of side effect.

Two points.
1. The contraceptive pill can cause blood clots. This has always been the case and has been known since Eve first discovered the facts of life, but it hasn't stopped millions upon millions of women taking it for most of their productive years happy to accept the risk, even though their chances of getting a clot are far higher than the risk we are talking about with the AZ. And we could say the same about people taking long distance flights just to go on holiday.
2. My DD is a speech therapist on aa stroke ward in a large hospital. She says there has been a large increase in patients who have had strokes after apparently fully recovering from Covid. She is angry that this fact ( well known amongst staff working with stroke patients) hasn't been given more publicity.

If you take the contraceptive pill you have a 6 in 1000 chance of having a blood clot, a vastly increased risk compared with the vaccine. But how many people are scared off taking the pill because of this? Pregnancy has a slightly greater risk still but unless you have a blood disorder, it wouldn't put you off getting pregnant.

We all have to do risk assessments all the time, unconsciously. Everytime I leave the house I could be injured in a car accident, I could be hit by falling debris, or attacked by an angry dog or someone having a psychotic episode. However I put those thoughts of that aside because I deem the risks to be too small to prevent me doing what I need to do.

I would have thought that given the terror of dying from Covid that has been generated in the population, surely the miniscule risk balanced against removal of that fear is worth taking?

But what’s wrong with giving under 30s a different vaccine? The balance of risk for them tilts towards that as an ‘abundance of caution’. We’ve got alternatives - I don’t understand why the decision is being criticised.