Dominic Cummings

The point I am making here Lucca is that it’s a mistake for anyone to take themselves too seriously on forums.Or, to take any other posters or the subject matter, to heart too much.

And it's completely inaccurate as I have just pointed out. I could list the changes in legislation that grew from activism on MN but I dont think it would alter the narrative.

But who is doing that lemongrove, we are having a discussion.

Last February/March when the herd immunity was being bandied about i said i hope i get covid soon rather than when i get seasonal asthma.
We know it was the policy so why Patel denied it this week i don't know.

The Mother's Day weekend should have been the time to lockdown yet Boris still stood after closing schools saying it was ok to visit mums. I wonder how many more died because of that weekend. It was only when Boris got it they seemed to change on herd immunity.
This isn't hindsight or key board warrior and cummings is confirming that what everyone thought had happened did happen.

What i have taken from Cummings is him saying that the Government were a bunch of no nothings who thought they didn't need expert advice.
But to be fair all Governments are that until they get faced with anything and that becomes there downfall.
Boris got in to get Brexit done. People voted for him to do that.
The vaccination programme will redeem him from this even now he has openly let the Indian variant through the front door.
Blair used to get Teflon Tony but Boris is Brush it off Johnson and that's what he has always been like in all these years he was in the public eye before becoming PM.
So Cummings probably won't damage BoJo cos he just blusters on regardless and that's what the majority of the British public seem to want.

Mollygo

*Maybe GN doesn’t have a direct impact on the real world, but some posters do.*
Exactly! When people are not sitting here typing, they might, for all we know, be doing great things in the real world. I too am actually having an impact on the lives of others in my local and not so local community, when I’m not posting on here.

If you learn something on GN that you can apply in the real world, that’s even better. Posters do learn things over the course of a discussion, some even without denigrating the behaviour of those who disagree with them.

Interesting to see the "do as I say not as I do" maxim coming into use again.

You say Posters do learn things over the course of a discussion, some even without denigrating the behaviour of those who disagree with them..

And yet you chose to denigrate me when you post

But PippaZ that’s exactly how you seem to me-a person with a narrow view, yours.

I had not posted anything about you or to you personally. Why do you feel the need to denigrate someone you see as disagreeing with you (although I didn't) and then suggest that others do this and by default, that you don't.

Very much a case of preaching to others while ignoring your own behaviour. Hypocrisy in action.

In the same way, the original post about pubs On a comfy seat with a pint in front of them ( cup of tea on GN) whilst they pontificate on how things should be done and how much better they should have been done. Even though in reality they don’t have a clue what should have been done or when. is used to denigrate others while suggesting the poster would never do this - notice this is about "they" not "we".

On a comfy seat with a pint in front of them ( cup of tea on GN) whilst they pontificate on how things should be done and how much better they should have been done. Even though in reality they don’t have a clue what should have been done or when.

That is such a breathtakingly sweeping statement.

In other words, don't question what your betters have decided?

Is that what you mean, Mollygo? Because that is exactly what it sounds like.

Do as I say not as I do Show me my use of that phrase.
I didn’t choose to denigrate you any more than you seem to me to do to me or others. There are often inferences on here to people being like sheep or references to ‘the usual other half’ which are not intended to be complimentary.
We probably all appear differently to other posters from how we are in real life.

This is getting more silly than the post that started it. No where did I say you used it Mollygo. I said it was what you were doing.

Now I really am being serious here, but I suspect some people will take offence.

Many posters think they are being called names, told their opinions don't count and so on. A great number of these posters post things with no background in fact; they post these things as gospel and defend it as "their opinion" to which they are entitled. Even when a post is explained to them in great detail, they don't get it. There's a belief amongst some that if anyone questions any discriminatory posts, that their freedom of speech is being questioned. And that the person questioning it is a swot, or something....

The "sheep" comments and so on are usually used to tell people who believe in facts that they are ....well....stupid, I think.

Well, you're going to get argued with. Its an internet forum. Its what we do

lemongrove

I seemed to have touched a nerve here! ?
Some posters just don’t get analogies it seems, and now we have our old friend ‘gaslighting’ getting a mention yet again.
Forums and venting therein, are much the same as people sitting around in pubs, if that offends your sensibilities (because you imagine you inhabit a loftier intellectual place) then too bad. It doesn’t mean that the venting has no value, but it is at much the same level.
Everyone is an expert with Google as their friend as well, plus acres of copying and pasting.
We should all take forums with a big pinch of salt and enjoy the ride, but seriously, when it comes to rants about the government of the day, nobody is changing anything, although it may feel good to get it off your chest.Nobody ever changed things by yakking in the pub or on threads.
When it comes to local matters close to home, of course you can help to change something, even protest marches can influence thinking.
Still, if you like thinking that what you bang out on the keyboard here influences anything politically in any meaningful way, then carry on thinking it, it doesn’t hurt anyone.

So why do you bother with it?

I think there is a change in how people object too Alegrias1.

We now have a great deal of what Tony Judt called, in Reappraisals: Reflections on the Forgotten Twentieth Century (2008), the "neo-Fascist right, whose program constitutes one long scream of resentment - at immigrants, at unemployment, at crime and insecurity, at "Europe'." I would go further and say the scream is against anyone who is not screaming with them - but then I feel the right has moved from economic politics to cultural politics so I would say that, wouldn't I.

I wonder why you bother with GN, if you honestly think it makes no difference.

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.
Even if politicians come on GN to ask for opinions, I doubt that they take the slightest bit of notice when decision making, unless it is near election time.

I have to acknowledge that I've learnt a lot on GN but I am not an influencer.
Any of my family who are out there making a difference wouldn't have the time or inclination to spend on GN anyway.

I had not seen the post above mine when I hit the post button. I think, in telling us we must behave exactly how the quoted poster choses to behave, my addendum to the quote from Judt is proved.

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.

If somebody learns something on here, or has their opinion questioned, it could lead to them re-appraising their voting intentions for future elections. So it does make a difference.

Of course, some will be obdurate....

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.

I don't think anyone expects it to influence government policy.

What it could, perhaps, do is influence people to look more clearly at what is happening in the political sphere and perhaps act in ways that might influence government policy. Writing to MPs, signing petitions, subscribing to campaigns, protesting on the streets... all the legal means of influencing government, or at least making their displeasure, or support, clear.

Callistemon

^I wonder why you bother with GN, if you honestly think it makes no difference.^

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.
Even if politicians come on GN to ask for opinions, I doubt that they take the slightest bit of notice when decision making, unless it is near election time.

I have to acknowledge that I've learnt a lot on GN but I am not an influencer.
Any of my family who are out there making a difference wouldn't have the time or inclination to spend on GN anyway.

I disagree. People do change their minds after chatting with friends or reading others' opinions. In the past, that chat might have taken place in pubs or over the garden fence, but today it happens on social media. Political influencers know that, which is why they employ huge armies of people to post messages on social media and pay to have lists of people who might be influenced.

It's a phenomenon Cummings understands well.

PippaZ

I think there is a change in how people object too Alegrias1.

We now have a great deal of what Tony Judt called, in Reappraisals: Reflections on the Forgotten Twentieth Century (2008), the "neo-Fascist right, whose program constitutes one long scream of resentment - at immigrants, at unemployment, at crime and insecurity, at "Europe'." I would go further and say the scream is against anyone who is not screaming with them - but then I feel the right has moved from economic politics to cultural politics so I would say that, wouldn't I.

Actually PZ I can see there is no point in replying to you.
To take a quote from your post I feel that your ‘scream is against anyone who is not screaming with’ you.
I’m busy doing something which will have impact on people’s actions and knowledge in the real world for the next week, so I’ll have a break-and so will you.

I’m a bit influenced by what I read on Gransnet.

Sometimes people make a good point, that makes sense to me and changes my thinking.

I also, on the political threads, sometimes think, “Do I want to live in a country where someone like this is in charge.”
I know that means I’m transferring a few peoples personalities to a political party as a whole, but it does work like that I’m afraid.

I am a floating voter. I find myself leaning both ways on different issues.

I am a floating voter in many ways too Peasblossom as we don't have proportional representation I don't really have a voice in "real life".
I have to vote for the "least worst option" or know my vote is "wasted".

I wonder how much influence the covid recovery group has in government given that I can’t help but feel they are just a new incarnation of the ERG? Does anyone know which MP’s form part of this group.

Mollygo

PippaZ

I think there is a change in how people object too Alegrias1.

We now have a great deal of what Tony Judt called, in Reappraisals: Reflections on the Forgotten Twentieth Century (2008), the "neo-Fascist right, whose program constitutes one long scream of resentment - at immigrants, at unemployment, at crime and insecurity, at "Europe'." I would go further and say the scream is against anyone who is not screaming with them - but then I feel the right has moved from economic politics to cultural politics so I would say that, wouldn't I.

Actually PZ I can see there is no point in replying to you.
To take a quote from your post I feel that your ‘scream is against anyone who is not screaming with’ you.
I’m busy doing something which will have impact on people’s actions and knowledge in the real world for the next week, so I’ll have a break-and so will you.

PippaZ Mollygo

The fact is the government had no plans should a pandemic occur and when one did, they were all out of their depth. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I hope lessons have been learnt, the UK has to be prepared, stocks of essentials must never be allowed to run low to the point that the government uses taxpayers money to purchase "unseen" items that turn out to be useless. Closing the air/sea ports should have happened early on when the pandemic was known to be spreading. Hancock should not have said people would only go back to care homes if they tested negative, knowing that no tests were available then. Politicians always adjust the truth, (they never lie) ! Bumbling Boris got in because there was no decent opposition and inept May went because she could not "get Brexit done". Boris was as surprised as the rest of us when the Chinese virus emerged and I think it was chaos in No 10, they just did not know what to do and argued among themselves. Once the Covid Rules were in place, everyone should have followed guidelines.
Cummings should have got on a bus and visited a local optician, most were still open, if he was concerned about his eyes, not got in a car with his family and driven to a beauty spot, I cannot imagine GNers doing what he did, and now he is lying about it. Surprise . . Boris could have sacked him then, once the press got the story he had the perfect reason, so I wonder why he did not. Maybe he knew Cummings would sing like a canary and did not want people to really know what a muddle the government were in - could not risk having the great unwashed knowing the truth. I wonder how accurate the big inquiry will be, the government are probably already plotting what will be made public and what will be brushed under that big carpet.

Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster-
Boris Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings on the virus, calls to order protective gear were ignored and scientists’ warnings fell on deaf ears. Failings in February may have cost thousands of lives

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

The fact is the government had no plans should a pandemic occur and when one did, they were all out of their depth.

The actual fact is that the government did have plans for a pandemic. It is one of the duties of a government to have plans in place for emergencies, and at one point the UK's pandemic planning was held to be among the best in the world. The fact is that it was run down by tory governments (in place since 2010, don't forget) and the practice exercise, Operation Cygnus (Oct 2016), highlighted serious flaws in its implementation. Unfortunately, the government (tory) was so preoccupied with Brexit that nothing was done to rectify the flaws.

It is completely naive to believe that governments have no pandemic plans in place. Emergency planning is a key task for any large organisation; they would be thoroughly irresponsible not to do it. So that excuse doesn't wash.

Admittedly the 'plan' was for an assumed flu outbreak, but plans can be adjusted. An earlier tory government had even contained a Minister, Rory Stewart, who had played a part in stemming the Ebola virus in Africa, an even nastier virus than covid, unfortunately, by the time covid hit us, Stewart was no longer a tory MP. But he could have been consulted.

It was tory negligence in government that made covid a disaster; May's government is implicated but the full blame must lie with the incompetent, lying charlatan who took her place. Governments shouldn't be 'taken by surprise', they should be alert to what is happening in the world and prepared to take prompt action as necessary. It's not as though what was happening in China and Italy was a little local difficulty; we all saw the news of hundreds of deaths in January/February and the fears that a global pandemic could be on its way.

What on earth do people expect from government that they are able to excuse it as being 'surprised'? It failed to protect us and went on failing to protect us even when the evidence was hitting it in the face...