“By the end of winter, pretty much everyone in Germany will probably be vaccinated, recovered or dead,”

I have three times been fined in the Glasgow Sheriff Court for not having my boy, now nearly 5 years old, vaccinated . . . The Barony Parochial Board here know that it is not my intention to have any of my children vaccinated, and this not from any religious 'fad' or peculiar view, but simply because I prefer not to take the physical risk involved in the operation.

Very similar to the attitude of some people towards the Covid vaccine isn’t it ? It’s not a viewpoint I understand when comparing the minuscule risk from vaccination to the very real effects of Covid. I’m pretty much of the opinion that if Covid had the same symptoms as Smallpox, people would be stampeding to the vaccine centres, but reading this, obviously not.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that if Covid had the symptoms of Smallpox, people would be stampeding to get it
If you mean scarring of the face, I would agree.

...to get vaccinated.

Lucca

It is an absolute mess isn’t it ? So no we haven’t got control.
I admit to being very conflicted on this. I am very pro vaccinating and Pro mask wearing but also worried about the “freedom” aspect. But does there come a point where the interests and safety of the community have to take precedence over personal choice/freedom ? Think of those people who won’t be able to get hospital treatment because wards are full of unvaccinated Covid sufferers, who would probably have not needed hospitalisation if vaccinated.

I’m just about the same as you lucca.

Covid is far from over. So we either live with that and mitigate, or ignore it then deal with the consequences later

The trouble with the German speaking nations is they have a very long and entrenched mindset of natural remedies. I lived there and my own GP practised acupuncture and reflexology as a matter of course, massage is prescribed as an everyday treatment and a "Kur" is an expectation and a normal part of recuperation - these were all treatments that were offered to me for my arthritic knees which weren't improved until I had them both replaced. They do not see vaccines as natural in any shape or form and therefore so many of them are anti -vaccine. Also Germany's testing rate is about a fifth of ours, so I would think that their rates are so much higher than officially acknowledged. Goodness knows what will happen if they do make vaccines mandatory. It's all such a mess.

Noticed reports from Japan where Covid has dropped to very low levels and nobody seems to know why various theories but nothing definite

Interesting, Mamie. That hasn’t happened in Scotland, where the VP’s haven’t led to much of an increase in uptake. Maybe that’s because we had higher levels of vaccination to begin with, so we’re now down to the ‘hard core’ of people who won’t have it done.

My medic dd has seen parents who are terrified of their children having covid, yet they have steadfastly refused all vaccines for their child, even the basic ones of which we have long experience, such as polio, diptheria & tetanus. Why would you be scared of Covid but not tetanus??

Why would you be scared of Covid but not tetanus??

Maybe because you have never known anyone to have tetanus and so you don't perceive it as a real risk.

Maybe, FarNorth! I’m old enough to remember when it wasn't a routine jab. My mum got bitten by a dog when I was a child and had to have three tetanus jabs because of the risk. We kids were terrified she was going to die of it. People don’t have those memories now.

I think SueDonim that (in my experience) it is very French. One of our neighbours said to me "I don't want to be vaccinated, but I shall have to if I want to go anywhere".
Children can't start school if they haven't had their vaccinations, so everyone does that.
Similarly not being able to go to holiday resorts, bars or restaurants is completely unthinkable, so you get vaccinated.
Lots of people will say they won't vote for Macron again, until they do. People take to the streets to protest, then do what the law requires.
This article by Tom Forth is very insightful I think (and so did my French U3A students). .
www.tomforth.co.uk/miserabilism/

My daughter-in-law is French, Mamie. She’s very funny about things and we often say we need to be more French! ?

I am in agreement with Alegrias although I think everyone ought to be vaccinated against Covid I'm worried about making it mandatory. It does seem like the start of a slippery slope.

It is one of the things I love about living here SueDonim. Everything is entirely theoretical and intellectual until it becomes completely pragmatic. ?

It is seriously worrying.

I suppose the question is what are they going to do to people who refuse the vaccine come what may? Lock them up? House arrest? I have written before that I have close relatives who are refuseniks and it's impacting on our contact with them. BUT we do live in a free society, so on balance I am against compulsory vaccination. While we are on the topic, it does seem that an awful lot of people think that it's gone away. I think that the rates of serious cases/deaths are reduced partly because people are voluntarily locking themselves down to a greater or lesser degree. I know we are, together with a number of contributors to this forum.

Mamie. Our dil has lived in the UK for 20 years now but she still expresses her puzzlement at Brits. We might be discussing some problem or other in the news and she’ll say ‘But why don’t you just do XYZ? That’s what the French would do!’ We have to explain that it’s just not British to do things that way. ?

I think that the rates of serious cases/deaths are reduced partly because people are voluntarily locking themselves down to a greater or lesser degree. I know we are, together with a number of contributors to this forum.

I think you're right.

rosie1959

Noticed reports from Japan where Covid has dropped to very low levels and nobody seems to know why various theories but nothing definite

Dr Johns latest utube blog is looking at this.

Thank you MayBee will have a look

I feel quite despairing about all this now.

Human ingenuity and generations of hard work have given us the opportunity to wipe this virus out in the long term - and what happens? We have nutters who refuse the vaccine and we cannot co-operate sufficiently to vaccinate the world. The pioneering scientists who gave us this gift must be turning in their graves.

MayBeMaw, I think 'by the end of winter' is very optimistic, as I've been told it will take about four years before there's hope of it subsiding.

We're not at two years until the spring. There's the ongoing threat of new variants while it circulates - and waning immunity. People can catch it again. It's a world problem, too, so can't be assessed by one country (Germany) alone, not with people moving everywhere.

Not my words Hetty - but Spahn was surely trying to lay it on the line for the refuseniks.

I don't think we need compulsory vaccination - we just need to make life very difficult (and boring) indeed for the unvaccinated.

No access to pubs, hotels, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, gyms, indoor pools etc. and stringent testing requirements for travel, doctors, dentists, hospital visits etc. Let's make holiday arrangements very time consuming and expensive too.

If all that doesn't change their minds, they'll be rushing for their jabs when they lose friends and family to it.

GN's gone bananas tonight.

Alegrias1, They pose a risk so why let them go around infecting other people? We don't tolerate drunk drivers, muggers, terrorists etc. do we?