Art is culture, right?

Is the display of poppies 'art'? Were all the flowers planted on verges and roundabouts this year art? I don't know the answer to that one, but I do know that it is beautiful, symbolic and moving and this is why the moat of the Tower of London is a fitting place for this display:

www.hrp.org.uk/TowerOfLondon/stories/firstworldwar/recruitment-troops

I think Jonathan Jones entirely misses the point and I still think he is a pretentious plonker but I think what Iain Dale said could have been expressed much better!

Does the fact that the installation of poppies is so popular mean it's a bit low brow, and part of popular culture, rather than "proper art" ?

Jonathan Jones seems to think so.

I am not particularly an arty farty type of person, I know what I like when I see it, not because somebody tells me I should like it. Hence art critics have possibly the most useless job in the world for me.

Infact critics of any kind whether it be art, films, books are a bit like the Emperors New Clothes syndrome to me. I think there are levels however and reading a t.v. mag review is not in the same league as somebody who delves into a subject with a hint of narcasissism in their critique because 'nobody could possibly argue with me darling'.

The poppy display has captured imagination in a constructive manner and for some whatever is done in the name of remembrance it will never be satisfactory, have any worth etc. because we all hold views which will vary.

The poppy display wouldn't appeal to some because of their view and I for one can't help but think using the poppy display to critique it's value as an art installation was just another way to make a statement on his view of rembrance rather than giving a toss about the display itself.

So Mr. Jonathan Jones of the Guardian. When you 'tell' us "This UKIP Type Memorial Demeans Us All' you can stick your comment up your right royal cultural elite jacksie as far as I am concerned and if that upsets the left wing, Quakers, Uncle Tom Cobley and all so be it because your words are upsetting to others too.

I hope he reads that, POGS.

I have no idea at all what it has to do with UKIP, can't see the connection whatsoever. Does that mean the RBL Poppy Appeal which raises funds every year is something to do with UKIP? No. Does that mean the Royal Festival of Remembrance attended by the Queen each year is organised by UKIP? No.

Jonathan Jones is a very narrow-minded and imo ill-educated person. In fact, the Guardian should be ashamed to employ him.

I don't disagree.

I think the poppy has been politically hijacked, war has been sanitised and Wilfred Owen would agree with him.

The poppy campaign also allows the government and armed forces to shirk their responsibility to serving and former servicemen by encouraging charity to support them.

There is a paucity of mental health support for veterans, properly funded rehabilitation for serving and post serving, interference with pensions, pathetic maintenance of forces accommodation, little help with reintegration back into civvy street.....

Governments prat about with Jingoistic demonstrations of gratitude whilst treating the servicepeople like crap and these art installations sadly are part of this.

They are (Opium) poppies for the masses, designed to distract from the real issues.

and ServiceWOMEN- I shouldn't have used the term 'servicemen'.

I'm confused Millers Tale.

You state "I think the poppy has been politically hijacked", yet you agree with the Guardian's Art Critic Jonathan Jones who went out of his way to politicise the display.

I am heartily fed up with the much used term that 'war has been sanitised', it hasn't to me but perhaps that's because I read, watch footage, manage to think in a way that allows me to empathise, understand, feel the horrors, see the horrors in a vivid way.

How the hell can war, destruction, death, abject misery be sanitised?

It can be forgotten, not thought of, an incapability of a person to empathise with it's full horror but I don't see that as being sanitised, unless you were predisposed to any of the mentioned but I don't think any rational thinking person is and I most certainly do not imply any one poster is on this thread before anybody feels I am making a personal attack about their ability to empathise.

The only area I could go along with using the term 'sanitised' would be in the footage shown on our current news coverage where the sight of blood has practically been irradicated and I have to admit to having two minds on that matter.

There are constant reminders of war and it's downright gruesome aspects. That ranges from seeing veterans undergoing rehabilitation through loosing limbs etc, school children studying the subject at a level that respects their age to the news coverage of the Palestine/Israel conflict, Boko Haram attrocities, Syrian war, ISIS beheadings and crucifixion of innocent people, I need not go on.

It is obvious the poppy has a different meaning to all of us but I just feel so utterly saddened that such a thing of worth, meaning and good intention can be so discredited, why?, just to make a point that war is wrong, well guess what it doesn't take a b----y genious to work that out but it takes a nation to get behind the empathy of those who have sacrificed their life irrespective of the rights or wrong.

I remember Joan Bakewell last year declaring it was the first year she had ever worn a poppy. I never really did understand why she had a change of heart but her words were typical of the mantra and I found it hollow, soulless and to be frank of little consequence, the same as mine will be to those who dislike anything to do with remembrance poppies.

Pogs

I am EXACTLY referring to the coverage of war and the romanticising of it by the media. I also should have made it clear that I agree with some of what he said, not all, same as I agree with some of what the opposing camps say. Never have I said that my beliefs were predicated on war=wrong so therefore a poppy=wrong. You made that assumption.

It can be forgotten not thought of an incapability of a person to empathise with its full horror but I do not see that as being sanitised unless you were predisposed to any of the mentioned - not quite sure what this means.

You don't address the failure of government to adequately fund rehab and the myriad of other areas fundamental to good forces. I would say that the major discrediting and disregard is not by people like me but by the government and those that mindlessly buy their poppies and fail to address the terrible treatment of service people by the government who wheel them out when it suits them reinforce theirplatitude filled speeches. I find it sad that a lot of these 'patriots' with your poppies appear to care very little about that. Listen to Harry Smith on the matter. He knows what he is talking about.

I think the poppy has been politically hijacked

This seems to be the view of the left-wing popular press and 'intelligentsia' themiller'stale.

I wonder if the Royal British Legion would agree.

soory, that should have been in italics, not highlighted. I was not intending it as a statement as it is not something I would agree with.

Rose

Again, I refer you to the appalling treatment of the forces by the establishment, the government and those that unquestioningly by a poppy.

The establishment wants you to keep on buying them as it means they can continue to shirk their responsibilities to the serving and formerly serving.

And this is the view of Harry Smith and quite a few of his colleagues and former colleagues. Privately, the British Legion will admit their is a major issue with the way funding is allocated to things like rehab and mental health, housing, welfare and homelessness. The Royal Legion has to exist because we, as a society do not demand the government helps properly. We are effectively taxed twice.

How many service people are homeless on our streets? Should charity support them or a supposedly grateful nation via proper provision? Do you think that is somehow totally unrelated?

I do not.

Buy a poppy, not by <oops>

and 'there' not 'their' What is going on?

It's because the weather has got cooler, my fingers are making typos today. That's my excuse.

Yes- I will be adopting that. It is embarrassing.

Millers Tale

I did not accuse you of having a predicated view of war=wrong, so therefore poppies=wrong. My words were meant in a generalised way.

I also clearly stated that I make no implication to any one poster on this thread, before anybody feels I am making a personal attack.

I thought that would be seen as generalising the debate but as I did open my post addressed to you I understand how and why you feel I was in a discussion with you only. That was not my intention for the whole of the post but I did mean it for my first paragraph re the politicisation point.

I did not mention the role of past, present or future governments (of any colour) funding or actions because I don't find it relevant to the point I was making but I was rather pleased that the Libor fines (over £100 million) were pledged to go to supporting the armed forces and other good causes rather than getting down the deficit or job creation for example.

No I didn't think you were making a personal attack . I took it as you debating and taking me up a points you disagreed with.

It's good to debate and I am having to learn the etiquette of this forum- I should have made it clearer that only one part of my post was a response to you and the rest, more general.

I bought 4 poppies in the display to represent the four members of my family who died in WW1.

I just thought JJ's comments were puerile, the actions of a baby throwing his toys out of the pram because nobody is paying attention to him. I was reminded of the Flanders and Swann song 'Pee, Po Belly Bum Drawers

Ma's out, Pa's out, Let's talk rude!
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Dance round the garden in the nude,
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Let's write rude words all down our street,
Stick out our tongues at the people we meet,
Let's have an intellectual treat for
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.

The above is roughly his intellectual level.

I bought 4 poppies in the display to represent the four members of my family who died in WW1.

I just thought JJ's comments were puerile, the actions of a baby throwing his toys out of the pram because nobody is paying attention to him. I was reminded of the Flanders and Swann song 'Pee, Po Belly Bum Drawers

Ma's out, Pa's out, Let's talk rude!
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Dance round the garden in the nude,
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Let's write rude words all down our street,
Stick out our tongues at the people we meet,
Let's have an intellectual treat for
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.

The above is roughly his intellectual level.

Millers Tale

Thank you for such a reasoned, polite post.

I think it's actually quite brave to make a statement that will more or less guarantee that you will be vilified by the mainstream media and a large proportion of the population.

Would you extend such a sneering assessment to those veterans (such as the ones who wrote to the Guardian in 2010) who also believed that the original purpose of Remembrance Day had been lost in a sea of commercialism and political posturing.

In 2002 BAE systems sponsored Poppy Day and their logo was on promotional material for Remembrance Sunday.

In 2011 the Royal British Legion allowed two other companies to produce poppies, one of which produced elaborate poppies, popular with celebrities, that looked more like fashion accessories than symbols of remembrance. This company paid just 10% of its profits to the Legion.

I have come to this thread rather late, half term and DGD staying has kept me away from Gransnet.

Nothing can sanitise war. Every day there are media images of the brutality currently happening in the Middle East. The terrible mutilation of British soldiers blown up by IEDs in Afghanistan is also constantly before us. Anyone who does not realise the brutality of war is culpably ignorant.

But let us also remember the grief of those left behind. They need to grieve for those they lost and have that grief acknowledged. Throwing horrors at them, a moat filled with bones and barbed war may shock, and horrify, but it does not acknowledge grief. The idea of the poppy as a reminder of the dead came from a serving soldier not from some PR company. It symbolises the shed blood but also the triumph of the human spirit that from the horror of the trenches, flowers of such beauty and fragility were the first to grow on the devastated land. The purpose of the poppy is to acknowledge the slaughter of those that died but also to acknowledge the grief of those they left behind and offer some hope for the future..

Remembrance Day and the Flanders Poppy, like Christmas is as commercial as we as individuals choose to make it. Neither, to me, is a commercial event. I remember my mother and her sister who grew up fatherless, a circumstance that effected their whole lives, my grandmother who at the end of the war was alone and the only support for an elderly mother, invalid sister and two small girls, I remember the grandfather and great uncles I never knew. I can still grieve for what my family lost in that war.

When my poppies arrive with me after their sojourn as part of this great art work. I will treasure them as symbols of what my family went through at that terrible time.

FlicketyB
Thank you for that post.

That is a lovely post.

FlicketyB Thank you for summing up my feelings about Rememberance Poppies so eloquently.