Art is culture, right?

Thank you FlicketyB. Your post sums up all that Remembrance is about.

If some commercialism brings the poppy and all that it means to the public's attention then that cannot altogether be a bad thing. Other wonderful charities have sprung up to help those servicemen injured in later conflicts but the RBL and its Poppy Appeal has raised money since 1921, and works in conjunction with some of these other, newer, charities.
Anyone who tries to suggest that the poppy is a political symbol or a celebration of war does it a grave disservice.

I think I agree about the sanitisation of war, and the idea that something which is so visually attractive contributes towards this. I think that there is a long history of using art to portray war in a way that makes it acceptable. so this installation simply continues this.
I think there is a growing "nostalgia-romance" becoming common when the First World War is mentioned. It is easier to recall our dead ancestors as romantic heroes dying tragically for their country than to think of them as young men suffering and dying, without any choice, sacrificed by an uncaring government. The pretty poppies are simply an example of this growing movement. The physical portrayal of the words Wilfred Owen used "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

I don't agree at all with this view, trisher.

They are not trying to use 'pretty poppies' as a growing movement towards sanitizing war. They are a symbol of something good coming out of something dreadful. There was an article in the media the other day about someone who has a real poppy brought back from the fields of Flanders by a soldier who survived, the poppy dried and preserved with his other papers.

The poppy has been used as a symbol of sacrifice and hope for the future since before 1921.

That is a poem I learnt and analysed at school and will always remember; Wilfred Owen used the term 'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' in an ironic sense, not literal.
It was probably used by the Roman poet Horace in a literal sense, but not by Owen who was fully aware of the horrors of war. It is wrong to quote it out of context:

www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

I doubt any thinking person over the age of about 4 looks at the poppies and thinks 'Oh, they are so pretty, how artistic'! They look upon them as a symbol of sacrifice, many having lost family members in that dreadful war, and they give thanks to those who enable us to live in (relative) freedom today, able to speak our minds such as the two people mentioned in the OP, without fear of imprisonment.

We should give thanks and remember and learn.

I totally disagree with you Trisher. I believe that the constant reminder in television every day every day of the brutality of war, as I mentioned above, has actually made most people more aware of the horrors of WW1 and has contributed to the need to commemorate, the men who lived and died in such terrible circumstances. I have never come across this 'nostalgia romance' you speak of.

I would also argue with your view of an 'uncaring' government. This is the result of a left wing musical with catchy tunes (which I thoroughly enjoyed when I saw it). Noel Coward spoke of the potency of cheap music, and this is a classic example, but popularity does not mean accuracy. The causes of the WW1 are complex, but certainly to begin with men in the UK willing flocked to join the forces and fight an enemy they enthusiastically acknowledged as such. This 20th century war introduced a form of warfare, with trench fighting and massive artillery bombardments, that became standard in later wars but in WW1 the generals on both sides trained in 19th century wars struggled to understand and adjust to it.

William Owen wrote his poem Dulce ist decorum est as a bitter repost to a poem by Jessie Pope, who wrote many patriotic poems extolling the 'glories' of dying for your country and which were aimed at encouraging men to enlist. To quote from the analysis of the poem on the site of the William Owen Association.. The title is ironic. The intention (of the poem) was not so much to induce pity as to shock, especially civilians at home who believed war was noble and glorious..... A poem seemingly written at white heat. Harsh, effective in the extreme.

Thanks to Flickety B for her posts, which express my own feelings much better than I could have. I buy poppies, and contribute to the British Legion appeals in memory of my relatives who fought, and some who died in WW1 and 2. I hope the money raised will go towards supporting the men and women who have fought in more recent wars. I've been involved in supporting a number of ex servicemen (no women to date) whose experiences led to a ptsd diagnosis. I believe most people who donate do so in the knowledge of the damage wars cause, rather than because they want to glorify it.

Wellrosequartz and FlicketyB firstly about the horrors of war I disagree about them being portrayed every day on the television. There was a point probably around the time of the Vietnam war when real images were seen. The photograph of the little girl running who had been hit by napalm comes to mind. Now it seems to be more fashionable to show something less shocking.
The fact that the government sells a war to the public and young men flock to the cause can't be denied, the justification for this propaganda can be questioned. I doubt young men in 1914 fully understood what was happening(which was in fact a struggle for empires) and probably believed the Germans were about to murder their families. As for trench warfare the French in fact lost far fewer men than the British in many battles because their generals did not send troops into battle in the same way.
I fully understand Owen's poem and posted only the words "Dulce etc" because I think he would have found the poppies just as distasteful as he found the words. The poppies are not there to remind people of the horrors of war- filling the moat with mud, adding some decomposing cadavers, a couple of dead horses, some barbed wire and a sound track of men screaming would do it better. The poppies make us think there was something heroic about the whole of WW1. I understand people want to remember loved ones lost, but making that sacrifice more romantic in any way does a disservice to them. There are war memorials all over the country. Stand at one, look at the names, notice how the same surname appears again and again, and recognise this was brothers, or a father and sons, all the men in a family wiped out at once. It will mean much more than a whole lot of pretty poppies.
I don't think I need to explain nostalgia-romance, both of you are solidly immersed in it. A result perhaps of the present propaganda that past and present wars are justifiable.

I can't help feeling these ceramic poppies are a step too far. Where does remembering, and feelings of horror and concern, stop and, almost, enjoyment begin?

Trisher I object strongly to your assertion that I and rosequartz are immersed in the nostalgia-romance. What have either of us said to support that contention, beyond disagree with you?

My family suffered grievously in WW1, my grandfather, three great uncles killed. Most of them family men in their thirties who left widowed mothers, wives and young children to mourn them and struggle on. In my childhood, in the company of the women left behind, I experienced the damage these losses had on the survivors.

You seem to forget that the metaphor of the poppies and the dead was written by a serving officer after he had buried a close friend. It was written within months of the deaths of my great uncles.

by John McCrae, May 1915

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Oh dear, nostalgia-romance, written by a serving soldier while on the front line, what could he have been thinking of!

I hope all children at school still learn the war poets.

I think that the poppy display has both good and bad points.
Personally, I dont do much of the looking back at life stuff in general.
But others do, and if the poppies help with that, fair enough.

Would agree with what someone wrote upthread.
I dont think that art critics can afford to be seen as part of the masses.

Poets are still people and some enjoy war, Sassoon called it jingoism. I'll stick to the Wilfred Owen's lines on the WW1 poets memorial in Westminster Abbey "My subject is War,and the pity of War. The poetry is in the pity"
Could give you Owen's "Anthem for Doomed Youth" as a counter to your poem but I leave you to read it if you wish.
The poppy's image has not been improved by this installation whatever it's original intention.

I object most strongly to the assertion that that I and flicketyb are immersed in the nostalgia-romance. What have either of us said to support that contention, beyond disagree with you? In fact, I would like you to withdraw that statement.

Our family has borne its fair share of loss; we do not look on war, especially WW1, in a romantic fashion and are fully and totally aware of the dreadfulness of war and the sorrow and loss that can ensue.
When we go to the Remembrance Sunday parade and service this Sunday and again on Tuesday we shall be giving thanks for their sacrifice, not glorifying war or romanticising it in any way. We do the same on 25th April each year. I am fully aware of the families who lost their sons - each year I hear our friend movingly read the names out in church and do not need to be told by you to stand at the war memorial and read the names. I know most of them by heart.

War is dreadful. These men sacrificed their lives in the hope that we can live ours in peace, and peace is what is prayed for fervently every year at Remembrance Services throughout the country. The poppy is a symbol of the blood that was shed, a symbol of remembrance but also of hope. Without hope we are diminished.

Perhaps we are over-egging the importance of these ceramic poppies. When I was in Milan recently, I stood in front of Picasso's Guernica. That picture made me cry.

I don't think these poppies are a work of art.

I meant Madrid. Why do I keep calling it "Milan"?!

#ageingbrain

I don't think we are 'over-egging' their importance, more missing the whole point of them.
They aren't a work of art, they are a memorial.
Totally different thing.

Milan is the one in Italy with all the fashion, Madrid is somewhere in the middle of Spain (I think)
(I looked it up on Google maps, aren't I clever!)

It was definitely Madrid! I was in! (I was calling it Milan even when we were there! )

Yes, the word Picasso gave me a hint!

Flickety You say about WWI that "to begin with men in the UK willingly flocked to join the forces and fight the enemy".

By 1915 a substantial proportion of the regular army was dead and the country looked to volunteers to fill the gap. History books reveal the central role of propaganda as a recruitment tool in WWI. This included, posters such as "Daddy, what did you do in the Great War?", "To the women of Britain ............. Won't you help and send a man to join the army today". The underlying theme of all these posters was that only those men (and their wives and children) who enlisted could hold their heads high. Those that were reluctant to enlist were portrayed as unpatriotic and cowardly and eventually became "willing" volunteers. The wives and families of conscientious objectors often received white feathers and they and their children were likely to be shunned and ridiculed by at least some of their neighbours.

A similar drop in recruitment occurred following the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and several reports were commissioned to make recommendations regarding effective strategies to improve recruitment. These included a "wider use of uniforms", a "more systematic approach to homecoming parades", "annual outreach programmes", "encouraging media activity", etc. etc. It seems that manipulative means are needed to normalise the idea of war and to encourage participation in it.

Conscientious objectors were regarded as scum a century ago.

I spoke of men willingly flocking to the recruitment offices at the start of the war. After that recruitment was based on campaigns to encourage men to enlist and in the later stages by conscription. My grandfather was a conscript, not a volunteer, but at the start men enthusiastically joined up to fight the Germans.

In case anyone is wondering what the original article was about this is it

and these are some works of art he links to

I think I agree with JJ. Perhaps garden centre ceramic poppies do not quite cut the mustard.

I think we are being given an unnecessary history lesson. I think most of us are fully aware (I am, and I am sure FlicketyB is, although I cannot of course speak for her) of what went on in WW1; the horrors, the shooting of 'cowards', the white feathers, the terrible loss of life, the psychological warfare that went on to encourage men to join up.
We know about the barbed wire, the mud, the trenches, the rats, trench-foot and all the other horrors; the shunning of anyone who dared to disagree, the young men with shell shock who were shot for being cowards. I know because DH and I have relatives who were there, although they would not necessarily wish to talk about it.

Yes, we know.

But that does not stop us looking on those poppies as a symbol both of that and of hope and a desire for peace, something good out of something terrible.

I think that each of those poppies has been bought by someone in remembrance of a relative lost in that awful war, and they should be sent to them as soon as possible after 11th November this year - something lasting to pass on to future generations in the hope that they will not have to go through the same dreadful experiences.
It isn't art, it is not a 'garden centre ceramic poppy', it is a symbol of remembrance.

Politicians make war, the population makes sacrifices. Aggression is wrong, defence is sometimes inevitable.
Some politicians in recent years both here and abroad do not seem able to understand the difference.

And let's get down to the nitty-gritty shall we?

As well as a symbol of remembrance, hope and a fervent desire for peace, the Poppy Appeal raises money to help servicemen and their families and ex-servicemen and their families. Other charities have sprung up in recent years to support ex-servicemen but I don't think that any are as wide-reaching as the RBL.

The poppies make money. They do not glorify war. I am just wondering how much money these other works of art mentioned by JJ make for Forces personnel? Worthy, thought-provoking but pretty useless really when it comes to struggling with everyday life in the aftermath of a war.

All of which does not make most people agree with war. We would all like to live in Utopia but with fear, greed and hatred still part of the human psyche I doubt that will happen.

Incidentally, I have just noticed that the boxes containing the poppy wreaths which will be laid at Centophs are made in a Remploy factory.

The paper poppy we pay our pound for in the street is a symbol of remembrance. These, I think, are glorifying.

And maybe he's right - we should be remembering the Germans and Italians who died. They were ordinary men too.