Art is culture, right?

And I think they are tacky. Like so many things today.

At the end of the day irrespective of which way your opinion falls the fact remains it is 'possibly' because of the sacrifices made by those who fought which allows us the opportunity to free speech to air them.

If I choose to remember that fact by wearing a poppy, because I want to, then it is not up to anybody or organisation to tell me I am wrong. I don't care if somebody doesn't wish to wear a poppy, that's their choice, I wouldn't dream of telling somebody you should wear a poppy.

I find the whole debate about the poppy in general and particularly the Tower display nothing more than sordid.

If a display were in situ, where, as suggested, it was a memorial constructed of mud and barbed wire I would be mature enough to accept that has a value too because no offence could be taken if the 'true' meaning behind it was to remind us of what hell war can be and to keep in our minds how people suffered because of it. I would not however say that it was wrong and make cheap shot remarks.

I agree we don't need a history lesson on the subject. We don't know how we would have behaved given the fact we were at war with a country/countries that were a threat to our lives and children and on our doorstep, not in some far off land. It's all fine and dandy to espouse a view having the privilege of historical hindsight but that's all it can ever be, a view.

How sad there is such hostility over a subject that doesn't have a scrap of vengeance about it.

This is good! A 360-degree view.

home.bt.com/news/uk-news/millions-flock-to-towers-stunning-poppy-tribute-11363942007046

Poppies work well, as regards making money.
They sell to the masses.
Which seems to be a lot of the point.

Presumably the young buy them as well, so I dont see the whole thing stopping anytime soon.

Wasnt going to add more. But as the debate is carrying on.

Personally I dont get why everyone keeps going on about ww1 in particular.
I personally felt I learnt my lessons about it back in the sixties, when my dad watched endless war things.

We are still going on and on about it 50 years later.

And I am beginning to have more than a sneaky suspicion that it seems to have contributed to more wars not less.
Men in particular watching war stuff seems to inspire more war, not less.

I have no 'hostility' towards the Tower display. Just feel uneasy about it. As I have said in my posts.

I find village war memorials more moving.

Well, of course it should be somebody's choice as to whether they wear a poppy or not, but as John Walsh says in The I today, "everyone who appears on British TV must be seen wearing a poppy - newsreaders, politicians, game-show hosts (and contestants), football managers" - except for Jon Snow, that is, who has consistently refused to wear one while he is broadcasting.

Some don the mantle of self-righteousness, believing that their attitude to war is, as if by divine right, the correct one - any opposing points of view somehow going against the "natural" order of things.

It is not the case that those who question the role of the Remembrance commemorations are pacifists (many former soldiers have also expressed uneasiness). Some undoubtedly are, but others have come to question the UK's role in recent wars and its appetite for further military spending.

If it is true that soldiers fought for the right of people to remain "free" (which no doubt most soldiers needed to, did - and continue to - believe in), then those that believe it is important to challenge views that are so often presented as beyond questioning should be at liberty to do so, without having their views described as "sordid".

For anyone interested in the wider implications of WW1 and the numbers of people who died, including civilians. I recommend this Quaker map
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=ztmNGmuUWfH0.k5FfbOPspjLI

The numbers are appalling. The Quakers also have some interesting things about war resisters and the white poppy
www.quaker.org.uk/ww1map

Forcing someone to wear a poppy (as the BBC appear to do before someone is allowed to appear on any of their programmes) goes against all the principles of freedom which were fought for and so hard won and which the poppy symbolizes.

I find that ironic and in fact quite disturbing.

I guess they only have to wear them when they are on air. They are BBC employees and the BBC has standards to keep up. They are being paid, so they have to abide by the terms of the job, while they are doing the job.

The war was freedom from a country. Not necessarily from an employer.

In the I today, it is reported that Joss Stone has recorded a song called "No Man's Land" as part of the Poppy Appeal.

The writer of this anti-war anthem, Eric Bogle, is apparently very unhappy as he believes his song has been "sentimentalised" because the last key verses have been omitted. The last verse is:

"And I can't help but wonder, Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you the cause?
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well, the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For, Willie McBride, it all happened again,
and again, and again, and again, and again."

I wonder if Mr Bogle gave permission for his song to be used and, if so, on what terms.

My own feeling is that this should primarily be a time to quietly remember the thousands upon thousands of lives that have been cut short by all these wars. But I think it should also be a time to question why we are content to look the other way while our governments increasingly champion the vile arms industry.

Thanks Eloethan for the words from Willie McBride, a song often heard in folk clubs I went to in my youth. How can this verse be omitted?
Your comments about this remembrance Sunday in particular, being a time to remember the many lives lost because of wars and this countries involvement in the arms industry

POGS Thanks for pointing me In the right direction. I look at these poppies flowing out of the window in the tower and it immediately reminds me of blood flowing. Read about 75% of the posts on this thread. I too am finding my feet with regards to GN etiquette. But it is stimulating to at least understand how a cross section of the population perceive the memmorial.

Does anyone else think it was sick to have that young boy "army cadet" in his make believe soldier uniform, to place the last ceramic poppy at the Tower?

Many more where they came from?

No I didn't find it at all 'sick'.

Why make believe uniform, wasn't he a cadet.

Each to his own.

I didn't think it was sick Jing, though I know many people did.
According to the newspapers, the boy's great great (maybe another great) uncle died in 1918 and the boy (who is a cadet so the uniform wasn't make believe) was selected to form a link between the generations.

I wonder how many other people have found this year's commemorations particularly poignant, because so many of us are fortunate enough to have the verbal histories of WW1 and 2 from loved family members.

He was thirteen years old FGS. A child. It was horrible. And wrong.

Why not a politician's child?

Actually, a child was fine. It was the army uniform thing that was so crass. It was like lining him up for future 'use'.

Army cadets do wear army uniform, Jingl. It is part of the thing, not invented for the ceremony.

Yes, I know that.

Have you completely missed my point? Never mind.

I get your point I think, jingl. Cannon-fodder in waiting.

Praise the Lord.

I don't think anybody missed the point!

I did find it a bit bizarre.
But I think I understand what they were doing.

I dont think that in this country that there is much coersion to join the national army.

Unlike what it was or is like in the USA.
Where there are or certainly were recruitment places deliberately opened in high unemployment areas.

There was a documentary, Michael Moore?, where he could only find 1 senator? who had a child in the army.
The rest didnt seem to like the idea.
Cant think why?
So I certainly didnt like the idea of army promotion, but thwy wouldnt have their own kids anywhere near it.