John Cleese and Andrew Graham Dixon

Callistemon21

^Well I guess it is quite a while since you worked in a university. A lecturer I know tells me that this year over 50% of her students have mental health problems. She also has a large number of overseas students who need higher levels of support. So perhaps 60% of her students should be considered as vulnerable, much higher than the average population.^

If that is true and over 50% of her students have diagnosed MH problems then perhaps one could query why and ask if university is the right environment for them at this particular time. Perhaps they should defer until they have had help to overcome their MH problems with proper, medical treatment and support.

Oh come on! Firstly it is completely wrong to.discriminate against students on the grounds of ill health or disability. Secondly aren't we trying to make mental health issues just a part of life and not something which marks someone out as different? What if the problem takes years to respond to treatment?
The 50% undoubtedly takes in students who have suffered in lockdown and your solution is to penalise them more!!

I have no idea what mental health problems her students have. I assume as she knows about them there has been some process of diagnosis and recording. I think there is a narrow line between feeling very unhappy or depressed and becoming suicidal, and starting Uni can exacerbate that. The University has a duty of care, should it fail to fulfil that duty there will be repercussions. Such as this thetab.com/uk/2022/05/20/discrimination-by-the-university-of-bristol-led-to-the-suicide-of-a-vulnerable-student-natasha-abrahart-252333

The student suicide rate in Unis has dropped in the last five years. Possibly because better policies are being employed.

We are well off topic now, aren't we?

I would suggest that any students (and I would apply this advice to the rest of the population too) who felt that their MH was too fragile to withstand hearing things with which they disagree should stay at home, rather than expecting the university experience of everyone else to be diminished.

I would also question the wisdom of anyone who is unable to withstand the trauma of hearing an opposing point of view leaving home and entering a challenging environment which is designed to stretch their thinking.

My friend would view shielding from 'difficult' views as deeply othering and patronising, as not being treated as a genuine member of society.

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Well I guess it is quite a while since you worked in a university. A lecturer I know tells me that this year over 50% of her students have mental health problems. She also has a large number of overseas students who need higher levels of support. So perhaps 60% of her students should be considered as vulnerable, much higher than the average population.

If that is true and over 50% of her students have diagnosed MH problems then perhaps one could query why and ask if university is the right environment for them at this particular time. Perhaps they should defer until they have had help to overcome their MH problems with proper, medical treatment and support.

Oh come on! Firstly it is completely wrong to.discriminate against students on the grounds of ill health or disability. Secondly aren't we trying to make mental health issues just a part of life and not something which marks someone out as different? What if the problem takes years to respond to treatment?
The 50% undoubtedly takes in students who have suffered in lockdown and your solution is to penalise them more!!

I wasn't talking about discriminating, in fact didn't even suggest it.
Don't put words into my mouth.

I just questioned whether over 50% of the students your friend know have diagnosed MH problems and whether or not university is the right environment for them.
Leaving home, perhaps for the first time, facing everything for the first time, is bound to cause some students more stress and anxiety than others.
It doesn't necessarily constitute a mental illness.

Is your lecturer friend a psychiatrist?

Galaxy

My friend would view shielding from 'difficult' views as deeply othering and patronising, as not being treated as a genuine member of society.

Quite.

why do you think Rosie's post means she approves of blacking up Glorianny. She's referring to Matt Lucas changing his mind about what is and isn't acceptable, not giving her own opinion either way.

Please don't use the case of Natasha Abrahart to try to prove your point.

It's offensive and upsetting.

Callistemon21

Please don't use the case of Natasha Abrahart to try to prove your point.

It's offensive and upsetting.

I'm sorry if you are offended Callistemon21 but there seemed to be some doubt on here about mental health levels amongst students and a University"s responsibilities to their students. It was an attempt to illustrate the problem.

I find this attitude towards students, that either they can't have mental health problems, if they do have them they shouldn't be at University, and the I know one who is tough enough suggestion very upsetting. I find the lengths to which some people will go to prove there is no case for protecting vulnerable students upsetting as well.

As I said the suicide rate at Universities has dropped in the last five years and if one potential suicide was prevented by no-platforming I think it is a price worth paying. And I know it won't be the only factor but I can't see exposing anyone to speech you are aware will upset some people has any value at all when you know some of those people are vulnerable

Smileless2012

why do you think Rosie's post means she approves of blacking up Glorianny. She's referring to Matt Lucas changing his mind about what is and isn't acceptable, not giving her own opinion either way.

Matt Lucas specifically referred to the blacking up in his apology

This thread has demonstrated the absolute impossibility of discussing complex subjects without offending people.

Yes I know that Glorianny but in response to her post you posted "I take it this means you approve of blacking up then", so I'm asking why you think she does?

Smileless2012

why do you think Rosie's post means she approves of blacking up Glorianny. She's referring to Matt Lucas changing his mind about what is and isn't acceptable, not giving her own opinion either way.

Thank you for getting my post Smileless2012
Glorianny I’ll assume you didn’t deliberately misunderstand my post, but I found your assumption upsetting and highly offensive.
Blacking up has been offensive for donkey’s years and certainly when ML was doing it so his denial of the criticism he received at the time showed his indifference to hurt feelings. I suspect it was fear of being cancelled that suddenly made him so aware prompting the apology.
I find drag very offensive and the equivalent of blackface to women. I hope one day that it too will be seen in the same light.
It was lucky I had one last look at this thread as I’m flying to see my family for the first time in 3 years tomorrow, and would hate your insult to stand unchallenged.

Well I'm sorry but if someone apologises for something and specifically names something in that apology and you then question that apology what else can I gather from that except that you feel he had nothing to apologise for? Otherwise wouldn't you simply accept the apology?
Thankyou for your post Rosie51 I'm now left wondering why you wouldn't want someone to apologise for being offensive.

Oooh how wonderful Rosie, you must be so excited. Have a great time with your family.

I find this attitude towards students, that either they can't have mental health problems, if they do have them they shouldn't be at University, and the I know one who is tough enough suggestion very upsetting. I find the lengths to which some people will go to prove there is no case for protecting vulnerable students upsetting as well

I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Do not keep twisting what I said.

I'M OUT.

I’ll assume you didn’t deliberately misunderstand my post ..... Glorianny

Never assume anything, Rosie51

Really Glorianny!! It was perfectly obvious to me what Rosie meant by her original post and even though she has just given an explanation, you seem to be determined to allow your post which you now know has caused upset and offence, to have credibility.

Nobody takes Matt Lucas apologies and general behaviour on Twitter seriously do they?

Never been able to stand watching him TBH Galaxy let alone listen to anything he has to say.

This is off topic somewhat, and possibly controversial, but I do think that students (and where they are very young their parents) should take some responsibility when it comes to MH issues. If someone knows that their MH is fragile, or that they are ‘unable’ to fulfil the requirements of a course of study, they should consider choosing a different course or living at home whilst studying. It is unreasonable to expect to get special treatment (eg being absolved from the sorts of assessment that stresses them) when others getting the same qualification are expected to comply.

I agree Doodledog. Going to university, leaving home for the first time and having to fend for yourself, for many, for the first time in their lives is very stressful.

A great deal of thought needs to be given and it isn't for everyone. For some, studying where they can continue to live at home is a much better and safer option.

Doodledog

This is off topic somewhat, and possibly controversial, but I do think that students (and where they are very young their parents) should take some responsibility when it comes to MH issues. If someone knows that their MH is fragile, or that they are ‘unable’ to fulfil the requirements of a course of study, they should consider choosing a different course or living at home whilst studying. It is unreasonable to expect to get special treatment (eg being absolved from the sorts of assessment that stresses them) when others getting the same qualification are expected to comply.

And there you have an exact explanation of why mental health is still regarded as shameful and not to be spoken of. Because if you have a physical disability and need wheelchair access or an amanuensis you will get every consideration and adjustment. But if you have mental health issues well just go home!
Thank goodness most people working in universities don't think like this. It is a disability like any other and it needs to be catered for, not to do so is a breech of the law.

No it isn’t about mental health being shameful. It’s about all of us taking responsibility for our physical, emotional and mental health.
If we are not seriously mentally ill, ie psychotic , or suicidal to be blunt with the hope I won’t offend someone. Ok we had a miscarriage, a termination, our mother/other loved one has a terrifying diagnosis, we may feel we won’t be functioning at the top of our ability. Most / many employers/every university would accept a week self certification sick leave. It’s the responsible thing to do. If we need more time off, we need a certificate from our GP

It isn’t about shaming m.h. It’s about recognising if we break a leg, sprain an ankle, get a chest infection, we can’t work. Mental health and physical health - some of its management is down to the I fividual

And deciding that people with mental health issues cant cope with challenging opinions is deeply patronising. There is no evidence that the people who demand no platforming ( usually a very small percentage of the student body) have mental health issues. They may or they may not but you cant assume that they do.