eduating youngsters

Anja...stupid question, of course I brought my children up with good manners!

However I did teach for about 40 years and we never ignored poor manners. Reinforcing/ teaching them is part of personal and social education. Also part of working in an orderly, friendly school. Any primary or secondary school teacher would agree .

Good post trisher
Sometimes a school and a teacher is the only stability in a childs life.
If a child comes to school without manners, toilet training or the ability to hold cutlery etc etc then it is probably because that child's home life is not as good or as comfortable as that of our lucky grandchildren.

In a perfect world yes to all the examples but its not a perfect world.

Imho Schools should nurture as well as teach.

"Toilet training, using cutlery, saying "Please" and "Thank you", should all be the responsibility of the parents."
In theory I agree, Lynn.
But what if at home they never have a meal which needs knives and forks?
I've sat at children's school dinner tables showing them how to use cutlery. And that was in the '60s.

Lynne I do not think having a working mother has anything to do with it.

Remember those mothers, some years back taking their children to school while they (the mothers) were still in their pyjamas? When pushed they said they hadn't got time to get dressed and get the children to school. A working mother would not have had time to return home to get dressed before she went to work so the problem is unlikely to be caused by working mothers.

I am in my 70s, my mother worked, I worked and DDiL works, we were all brought up with good manners and were all reading before we started school as well.

Well I went to school toilet trained and able to write my name but I started school at 5! So did DH.

These days kids are often starting school when they have JUST turned 4, so before y'all harp back to the good old days, have a think about what age your toilet trained kids were when they started full time school.

My grandson was 4yrs and 3 weeks old when he started school. As I said upthread, he uses the toilet independently and is well-mannered, in fact is a stickler for doing the right thing. Both parents work FT so I don't think that's a factor.

I agree with cherrytree in an ideal world these things would be the responsibility of parents. Sadly its far from an ideal world for some children.

Yes all these responsibilities should fall on parents, however if they don't, someone has to pick up the pieces, simple as that.

My two youngest started school age 2 in France. Both were out of nappies (that had to be), knew that saying please and thank you were mandatory and could use cutlery and and go to the loo unaided. As I was brought up the same way myself, I thought that was normal behaviour - certainly the other children in the class behaved the same way. So how come French parent÷, working or not, have the time to teach these things while a he'll of a lot of English parents don't? I know in France children are taught a cadge (a way of doing everything at the right time and the right place)j why not here?

I think far too much is expected of teachers nowadays. What happened to the days when the teachers job was to simply teach children the usual subjects, not how to behave, how to eat, how to use a toilet. A headteacher these days seems to be someone who doesn't teach much but has to spend a lot of his/her time on financial matters, amongst other things. Is that what they signed up for? I don't think so. No wonder so many are leaving the profession.

Miepl - I noticed that in France. But the rule was that the child won't be accepted until he/she is out of nappies etc. so you don't know how many are still at home.

Let's ace facts there is a huge devide in our society and it shows most when children are in school. In one school all or most of the children will be well mannered, toilet trained, well fed and ready to start learning. Their homes will be full of books and stimulation. In another school (not necessarily far away) the children will arrive without any social skills and a number of problems, some will be underfed, some will have done little except watch TV, some will have run wild, some will never have eaten at a table. Their homes will have no books. The deprivation these children have begun life with will follow them for the rest of their lives.

Who are all these people who think that teachers are substitute parents to clearly lazy parents. These matters are certainly not the role of a teachers they ought to be taught at home, but clearly parents want a quiet life. Some of these parents drop their children off in posh cars but clearly these parents have no breeding and it shows.

Actually, it could be said that those children with working mothers ( surely the majority now?) are likely to be better trained for school due to having attended nursery. It is at nursery that children learn to share, take their turn, not grab, eat nicely etc., even if these 'skills' are not being taught at home.

Some of these parents drop their children off in posh cars but clearly these parents have no breeding and it shows

I don't think lack of those social skills is down to parents working. Both my little Gdcs have been at nursery 4 days a week from 9 or 12 months. From that experience, nurseries are pretty good at instilling a certain level of table manners, sitting nicely to eat, sharing and being kind, etc.

I have sometimes been amused to hear Gdd of 3 say to her little brother, 'That was not a good choice!' (Nursery- speak for something naughty or silly - she's never heard that at home.)
Toilet training is IMO a rather different matter. Gdd was trained rather later than my two, but then I was at home with them all day - nursery staff can't be expected to spend a week or more encouraging and clearing up puddles or poos for every child, as I did.

Have any of you been watching the BBC series called 'The School'. Its very enlightening about the underlying cost of all the cuts in education budgets. Poor teachers stressed to the max due to impending redundancies but, almost worst, the learning support staff being reduced and reduced again. These poor souls really care about the pupils. The sad head teachers tasked with difficult decisions too. Don't watch it ex teachers - I don't think there will be any surprises and it's depressing to see. I learnt a lot though. I really appreciate my own education and just wish my DGCs could have a similar one.

I taught Reception classes in very poor areas of London and the Midlands in the 1960s and 70s but never once did I encounter a child in nappies, only one child who refused to use the lavatory at school because he was terrified of the overhead cistern and the noise the flush made, and used a bucket at home. Many of these children used outdoor toilets at home, and in the school. not pleasant, but they were all toilet trained.
Down in the south there has been a small but significant increase in the number of children arriving at school still in nappies. Nothing to do with social class, working mothers, deprivation or being just over four; simply lazy parents who say quite blatantly: 'the school will sort that out.'

trisher, an excellent post. Can I also add homes where children are not exposed to English,do not sit on chairs ,do not use cutlery. This is no way meant to be offensive btw.

I think the laziness about nappies is the ease and convenience of disposables. In the old days it was hard work to keep washing and drying terry towel ones. They were awkward for kids to keep up when running round.

Disposables are comfortable and snug You also get financial help ( I think) if you have an older child in nappies.

Hence the laziness in toilet training,....... maybe. Still no excuse. Only 4/5 year olds with special needs are still incontinent.

When I first started teaching 30 years ago it was the very rare child who wasn’t toilet trained, couldn’t use cutlery , dress themselves after a fashion. Sadly, when I retired 2years ago it was very common, and I was in a very ‘middle class’ area. No, teachers should not be dealing with these things, often many weeks at the beginning of Reception were spent on these issues rather than education. But what can you do, you cannot let children carry on without basic skills , so if there is a parental shortfall you have to step in. I have seen a child eating stew with her hand, and when I men it to the mother she said” oh that’s because we only feed her things she can pick up” ye gods!

I do think one reason children were toilet trained earlier in the past, was the fact of having to wash and dry nappies, particularly in the days before automatic washing machines were common. People had much more of an incentive to get them trained.

I will admit to being somewhat shocked by a friend of dd whose child at 3 1/2 (certainly no special needs) was still in nappies. She was home with him all day, too - presumably it was just too easy to carry on with disposables.

I do sometimes wonder how my mother coped with my two rather younger siblings very close in age, and only one of those old machines you had to drag out, fill by hand, and then put everything through the wringer - though I know even that was more than many had,
Especially in a cold house in winter - no central heating of course - I well remember the old clothes horse in front of the fire, draped with steaming nappies.

Trisher, I think we have to be very careful not to solely blame the social divide, I have seen families who were deemed ‘deprived’ but the children clean , tidy , and well mannered, and also a family where mum and dad drove very ex cars, wore designer clothes, had very well paid jobs, but their children could do none of the above basic tasks and had obviously never been read to.

eazybee I was teaching in the 70s as well, but neither did I encounter alcoholic mothers, parents who were drug addicts or dealers (and actually the dealers' kids were better cared for) or agressive mothers. There was a school clinic where many of the children went to have small wounds treated and be checked by the school nurse, they were fed a hot meal every day even during the holidays and drank milk. As for toilet training one of the ways many of them were trained was because they were playing out in the street with older children as soon as they could walk (sometimes with any pants).
Society changes and the problems change.

if a teacher has to take a child to the toilet (change nappies etc) they are NOT allowed to do it alone (child protection issues) - so as they cannot leave a class unattended another person has to be found to help - this at a time when funds are virtually non-existent so little extra helpers around - I think there needs to be a contract between parents and the school - parents having to assume responsibility for toilet training for one thing!