Learning languages with Duolingo

Actually SD
Link: dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/patronize
Sorry about the z instead of s.
It does come across like that. A foreign language app thread - a good thread. Perhaps if you asked, “Do you know, or have you heard of Duolingo? instead of announcing what Duolingo is and then telling GNs to “discuss” you would probably have got just as many posts. Asking “How many people know about using a and an?” (which come under the broad heading of ‘determiners’) would share the info and allow those already educated, not to feel patronised.
One of my B-i-L speaks to us in the same way-as if we know nothing till he tells us.

I like Duolingo and have a 2311 day streak learning several languages, with varying degrees of success or failure and the word neushoorn is engraved indelibly on my mind, although I’m unlikely to need it.
Whilst we’re on the subject of foreign languages apps, have you heard of Memrise. That app actually has real people talking on it and you can learn the Portuguese that is spoken in Portugal rather than the Brazilian version.
As with Duolingo you can do it free, but at the moment there is a half price offer of £2.91 per month, although you have to pay for the year upfront.

Lucca

SD. Let’s just leave it now shall we ? No point getting into an argument. (I’m sure you do know what patronising means by the way)

Better to return to the topic of Duolingo. I tried it but became a bit bored ? I would prefer the interaction coming from learning as part of a taught class.

> SD. Let’s just leave it now shall we ? No point getting into an argument.

I posted. Some had a go at me. I replied.

> (I’m sure you do know what patronising means by the way)

Well, that is a matter for you.

I wrote,

>> I am never quite sure what patronising means.

And that is true. I have some understanding of the term but I am not entirely sure what it means.

You can clear it up by telling me what it means. Will you do that please?

Start a new thread as to what patronising means if you wish. It could be very interesting to know what people think it means.

Just before returning to Duolingo , and in connection with the indefinite article , and so by extension the Definite Article
From Definite Article
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf9Jy9JQgnY

I forgot the bit to say I am learning Gaelic on Duolingo but you probably guessed!

FannyCornforth

SD did you see my suggestion?
It’s easy to include no end of information without making any reference to the readers’ prior knowledge (not that I’d be thinking about it anyway)

Yes, Fanny, thank you.

I had posted my reply before I knew of your post to which I am now replying.

> It’s easy to include no end of information without making any reference to the readers’ prior knowledge

Yes. Well, some people get upset if they are told something they already know. If someone tells me something I already know, then depending upon the situation I may say, "Yes, that's right" or I might just say "Thank you" so as to try to avoid hurting the feelings of someone who was trying to be helpful, and so that the person will not become deterred from trying to help others in the future.

> (not that I’d be thinking about it anyway)

Oh.

SD. Let’s just leave it now shall we ? No point getting into an argument. (I’m sure you do know what patronising means by the way)

Better to return to the topic of Duolingo. I tried it but became a bit bored ? I would prefer the interaction coming from learning as part of a taught class.

I think that it would have passed entirely without comment, regardless of who posted it, as there is nothing to be misconstrued.
It’s just an impersonal way of writing.

I’m getting a bit confused myself now!

I tried learning Italian with Duolingo. It didn't teach me anything useful. It taught me phrases such as 'the girl eats the apple' or 'the boy drinks water'. Not much use to me if I was on holiday in Italy.

FannyCornforth

Thank you JackyB, very interesting re Polish.
I did try to learn a Slavic language a while back, and I was defeated quite quickly.

SD just a suggestion.
If I had written your post about grammar, I would simply have written something like:

‘Blah blah blah… indefinite article (that is: ‘a’ or ‘an’)…’

> ‘Blah blah blah… indefinite article (that is: ‘a’ or ‘an’)…’

That would not have been congruently the same as that is only the version in English.

But apart from that, you Fanny may well have been allowed to post that without ... er ... feedback, but what if I had posted that!

SD did you see my suggestion?
It’s easy to include no end of information without making any reference to the readers’ prior knowledge (not that I’d be thinking about it anyway)

MawtheMerrier

We shall have to agree to differ. As I said I found it an inept expression which which would be inappropriate in any RL conversation outside of a pedagogical context.
I wonder if you are missing the nuanced difference between “many, many members” (which is factual) and “many people” which paradoxically can be the opposite of inclusive.

> I wonder if you are missing the nuanced difference between “many, many members” (which is factual) and “many people” which paradoxically can be the opposite of inclusive.

I don't know, what is that please?

So it is highly likely that I am missing whatever it is.

Can you explain please?

If it helps, I wrote it in the sense of set theory, there is the set of all people, and the subset of people who already know.

I tried to be inclusive so that the people in the set of all people who are not also in the subset of people who already know are not left wondering what I have meant, yet at the same time recognising that the set of peole who already know includes many people.

Because my nature is to be inclusive.

What I like are the different constructions and the fact that in Gaelic there is very little sense of possession so it isn't your red sweater but the red sweater on you and so on. It's very descriptive and those Gaelic words for place names tell much. There are Ben Mor(s) all over as it just means big mountain but some are more obscure
My DGC are learning Gaelic at school and ofcourse are way ahead of me with perfect pronunciation.

Thank you JackyB, very interesting re Polish.
I did try to learn a Slavic language a while back, and I was defeated quite quickly.

SD just a suggestion.
If I had written your post about grammar, I would simply have written something like:

‘Blah blah blah… indefinite article (that is: ‘a’ or ‘an’)…’

Lucca

MawtheMerrier

Many readers will know that in English that the word 'a' before a consonant and 'an' before a vowel, is the indefinite article
How patronising!
And many grannies also know how to suck eggs!.

It may not have been your intention SD to be patronising but that was my instant reaction too.

It was certainly not my intention.

Can you say why you had thar instant reaction?

I am never quite sure what patronising means.

Is doing patronising a personality feature that some people have, as a sort of trying to prove their supposed intellectual superiority or something like that?

I know that my qualifications are somewhere in the middle, some people with more, some people with fewer. I try to achieve in absolute terms, but not in the sense of being the winner or doing better than someone else.

We shall have to agree to differ. As I said I found it an inept expression which which would be inappropriate in any RL conversation outside of a pedagogical context.
I wonder if you are missing the nuanced difference between “many, many members” (which is factual) and “many people” which paradoxically can be the opposite of inclusive.

StarDreamer

MawtheMerrier

I disagree. It was, at best, patronising and at worst it insulted the intelligence of fellow Gransnetters.
An expression like Many readers was entirely inappropriate, We are not old biddies who need to be told how many beans make five .
It is not something anybody would ever drop into a RL conversation unless relevant eg in a language/grammar lesson. And there are many, many members here with experience of teaching languages and grammar at all levels of education from school to University.

No, it was not patronising and it was not insulting. It was a straightforward, polite, way to include information that, while recognising that many, maybe all, of the people reading this thread would already know that information, would also be inclusive in case some people, or even just one person, reading this thread did not understand what I was writing about when I had written as follows.

>> Some languages, for example Esperanto and Welsh having no indefinite article.

You have used the word many.

> And there are many, many members here with experience of teaching languages and grammar at all levels of education from school to University.

Many does not mean all.

I wrote to be inclusive, no one left behind.

At our ages we would all have learned that in primary school though StarDreamer. You have to remember that we are all equals on here, you’re not our teacher - if you had been talking to eight year olds it may have been helpful, although they find learning languages so much easier than we do now, so they would probably know too. They certainly would if they are Welsh, as it’s compulsory to learn Welsh up to Year 9.

MawtheMerrier

I disagree. It was, at best, patronising and at worst it insulted the intelligence of fellow Gransnetters.
An expression like Many readers was entirely inappropriate, We are not old biddies who need to be told how many beans make five .
It is not something anybody would ever drop into a RL conversation unless relevant eg in a language/grammar lesson. And there are many, many members here with experience of teaching languages and grammar at all levels of education from school to University.

No, it was not patronising and it was not insulting. It was a straightforward, polite, way to include information that, while recognising that many, maybe all, of the people reading this thread would already know that information, would also be inclusive in case some people, or even just one person, reading this thread did not understand what I was writing about when I had written as follows.

>> Some languages, for example Esperanto and Welsh having no indefinite article.

You have used the word many.

> And there are many, many members here with experience of teaching languages and grammar at all levels of education from school to University.

Many does not mean all.

I wrote to be inclusive, no one left behind.

I have been trying to learn Gaelic on Duolingo for well over a year now. Can't say I could carry on a conversation.
I also attend a class on zoom each week with a real life teacher and I tune in to the Alba TV channel occasionally.
I have an unbroken streak of 100 days but am in danger of losing it. I had better do my 10 minutes.
Mar sin leat

MawtheMerrier

^Many readers will know that in English that the word 'a' before a consonant and 'an' before a vowel, is the indefinite article^
How patronising!
And many grannies also know how to suck eggs!.

It may not have been your intention SD to be patronising but that was my instant reaction too.

FannyCornforth

JackyB if I were to learn a language it would probably be Polish.
A gentleman that I randomly met in Waterstones told me that for English speakers, Polish was one of the hardest languages to learn.
What are your thoughts?

I can't really compare as I have no experience of Chinese, or Arabic or many other groups of languages.

With Polish, the one blessing is that syntax is at least intuitive. I did start learning Russian many aeons ago so was familiar with the different cases (which even go further than Latin). Pronunciation, where there can be 6 or 7 consonants together, is quite a hurdle. I could do with more handy tables to check the conjugations and declensions. However, it is fun to do as there is absolutely no way you can derive any words from any of the more familiar languages - the Slavic roots are so different and it's just a question of learning everything by heart.
--

Thanks oldnproud, you'd think they could have kept the fora open so that learners can help each other, even if there is no one else to help.

I never knew Delphinium meant Dolphin! ?

I do like those examples Maw, far better than the English expression.

If you are interested SD, many other languages have expressions about trying to teach one’s betters what they already know. These are often translated into English as “Don’t teach your grandmother to suck eggs,” even though that’s not the actual wording.

Here are some of these proverbs, and their literal translations:

Latin: Ne sus Minervam doceat (“A sow does not teach Minerva [goddess of wisdom]”); Delphinum natare doces (“You’re teaching a dolphin to swim”); Aquilam volare doces (“You’re teaching an eagle to fly”); À bove majori discit arare minor (“The young ox learns to plow from the elder”).

French: Les oisons veulent mener les ois paître (“The goslings want to drive the geese to pasture”); Il ne faux pas apprendre aux poissons à nager (“One does not teach fish to swim”).

Italian: Insegnar nuotare ai pesci (“To teach fish to swim”); L’uovo ne vuol saper più della gallina (“The egg should not know more than the hen”).

German: Er will seinen Vater lernen Kinder erziehen (“He would teach his father to raise children”); Das Ei will klüger sein als die Henne (“The egg wants to be wiser than the hen”).

Spanish: Aún no ha salido del cascarón y ya tiene presunción (“He hasn’t left the shell, but he’s already being presumptuous”).

Portuguese: Ensinar o Pai-Nosso ao vigário (“Teach the Lord’s Prayer to the vicar”).
#justsaying

For completeness of a serendipitous pathway.

LINK > Teaching grandmother to suck eggs

LINK > Francisco de Quevedo

LINK > Wall poems in Leiden

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