Smileless I dont want to call you out because on the whole your posts on here don't particularly stand out to me. However, I do feel (from reading your last post) that you have missed the point a little. Of course your relationship with your son was going to change once he took a wife, his priorities shift from you to her (& so they should) that doesn't mean that she's manipulated him or anything and it's very normal for parents to feel pushed out by a new women in their lives. The key to successful family relationships (especially where a DIL is concerned) is to accept her as a new daughter and not see the situation as losing a son. She would have found it a whole lot more difficult to cut you off if she had a good/loving relationship with you herself.
I'm not saying though that you deserve cutting out. Not at all, I don't know much about your relationship but I can guarantee that your son and DIL will see the situation a whole lot differently to the way you do. Your son is a grown man, had he wanted to maintain contact with you then he would have found a way to do so. If he thought that his wife had treated you absurdly then he would have stood up to her.
Like flump put (more elegantly then I can) two sides of your family are probably seeing the situation in two completely different ways.
Most people (not all) but certainly most, will find it extremely difficult to completely cut contact with a parent, especially where the parent has had some involvement with their child and there will be a lot of guilt/sadness/upset attached to doing so. However, they must have felt that there was a huge unsolvable problem between you all. No idea what that problem may be or whether they are being irrational but they would not have put themselves and their families through the grief of cutting contact had they thought that issues could be resolved. Bare that in mind when blaming your DIL for all your family problems.
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact
(1001 Posts)I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand why their adult children treat them like they do, this very well written post sums it up perfectly.
It was sent to me this morning. Obviously some AC have no choice but to keep their distance from abusive parents, we understand this. But this NC approach being liberally recommended is a highly destructive trend ruining many lives.
' I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I'm toxic when I feel it's the other way around. We've been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we've all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It's like they're reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called "Going No Contact". It's literally a scripted plan that they follow. It starts when they judge us as not just humans with whom they disagree, but "evil" because we don't see things their way. They complain online, and meet other complaining children who honestly believe, thanks to the self-esteem movement, that any time they were uncomfortable for a moment equals abuse. If their parents disagreed with them or made them do something that they didn't like or whacked their fresh asses when they talked back or refused to follow rules, they add this to their pile of justification. Lacking coping skills, they believe that anytime they are not happy, they have been wronged, and the person who dared to 'make' them feel bad is a Narcissist.
A Narcissist to them is what 'possessed' meant to our parents. The Narcissist is pure evil and a force to be feared and hated. They all bolster one another's justification of their interpretation of who we are. They swap war stories that are positively ridiculous, such as stories of the "evil narcissistic mother in law who wore a different dress than agreed upon to the wedding" or the "evil, narcissistic mother who took away all of their toys until their chores were done". I've seen both of those in these groups.
After justifying to themselves that they are RIGHT and their parents are EVIL NARCISSISTS, they begin plans to "Go No Contact". It is a systematic plan to discard the parents/grandparent, and turn the kids against grandparents. There are actual steps to this plan. They vary from group to group, but they are essentially all similar.
The groups talk a lot about setting boundaries, but what they call setting boundaries is just rude dictating, and setting their targets up to fail. Stuff like "I told my mother that she can come over between 12 and 1 on Sundays only. If she is one minute early or stays one minute late, that will be the end of her visits." Part of the plan is to NOT tell mother what she did wrong, just to enact the "consequence". They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere, ordering parent out of their house, putting parents in that time out thing where they tell us not to contact them for a certain length of time, and then they will "review our request".
They post joyful stories of their parents reaction to losing grandkids or their parents pleas for an explanation. They cheer each other on and congratulate one another for cutting family off. Refusing to give any explanation is part of the plan. They call it Taking Your Power Back.
They claim that it's to protect themselves from the evil narcissists who are terrorizing them, but in reality, it's not about protection or healing. It's about power, control, and just being shitty. They don't know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries.
Google "Going No Contact". You will find pages and pages of groups and instructions that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on "Going No Contact". It's like a map to navigate this territory. It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking "You're such a lemming". Who the hell would follow this crap.
They would, that's who'
Bugsby that is a very thoughtful post.
Thank you it would be wonderful to reconcile one day,
Nothing comes from nothing an old Cliff song! Showing my age.?. So an estrangement will have been preplanned for various reasons it Is a massive thing to do!
I have to say that I thought I got on well with my s i law he seemed thOughtful and very polite. I was worried that he took time off work at slightest excuse and had no interest in working extra, our ed had to do overtime while pregnant and that upset me, she worked til 11am at pharmacy and I asked dh if we could pay her to let her stop work but he rightly said it wasn't our place it was her husbands,
In a difference of opinion when they took on big mortgage I lost it and told s i law he was sponging off our daughter. I often wondered if he remembered this and held it against me as was before they married.
I was proved to be right as our daughter had To return to work after serious illness before recommended as she had mortgage to pay. He takes time off each week while she works to care for kids last I heard.
However I should never have commented but was that enough reason to break our hearts?
What i am saying is I know smilelsss got on v well with her d i law as she cut her own mum out for the wedding I believe.
Therefore doesn't always follow. My s i law and smilelsss d i law still found it easy cut us off despite us seeming to get on well.
I did suspect things were wrong when I asked if ed could bring baby over to see her grandad as he had never seen her, as she was getting her ready to go see s i law gran,
My daughter ranted at me and hung up.
We then received a text saying she. NEver wanted see us
again so that will give you an idea how volatile it was,
I just ignored it and drove over 40 miles they were out, but returned she came gave me hug and we sorted out our differences s i law disappeared in kitchen and never spoke to us entire visit.
This was August, we weren't cut off til following march but I expect seeds were sown.
Sorry have digressed. Thanks bugsby I would willingly admit I made mistakes and maybe said things that I shouldn't have perhaps it was all too much for my daughter to bear at that time having given birth,
However all I wanted to do was help.
I thought we had some wonderful times together with baby and I think we did.
I just wish she could have told me what I had done that was so wrong instead of texting her friend.
Is opposite way round with me Smilelss my dear son is one who I get on with very well he is kind and gentle despite being ex army officer and enormously intelligent,
My daughter and I were alike in lots ways and clashed an awful lot but we were in constant contact daily texts or calls and she always seemed to need me so imagine how I felt 7 years ago discovering she had another child without telling me,??
Even worse becoming seriously ill in 2015 and no one told us, would we have been told if she died? It was horrendous.
As said before godfather drove us over but s i law shut door in dh face we drove to ed inlaws and her f ilaw told us she nearly died, I asked did no one think to tell us? How would he feel if was his daughter he just shouted no and slammed door,
Still I hope one day we will reconcile I don't want to die estranged from my only daughter, but I don't have a say in it.
Sorry for such long lost!
Wonder I can type as been eye specialist today to have those awful drops in and soooo many test photos etc to check freckle behind eye.
Apparently the white flashes in right eye are because I have new floaters,
I see Flump xx
Excellent post,12.42, as always Smileless xx
Bugs I am not as good with words as our Smileless is, but your post is such a load of rubbish!
Why is that yogagirl?
Smilless is accepting there are two sides to everything
I pointed out to bugsby that it's does t always follow that smilless getting on with her d inlaw and me with s inlaw didn't prevent them cutting us off.
However like my daughter is grown woman and Smilelss son Grow man they are able to decide what they want to do,
I do accept in my case s i law influenced or brainwashed my daughter but it is not all his fault.
In your case you blame s i law totally?
I agree with bugsby when our child marries it it only right your relationship alters their husband/wife should come
first don't you agree?
I have a friend who is social worker and she says there are lot women very controlled by their husbands in my daughters case she was string character like myself so seems strange.
No one would stop me seeing my family.
Maybe this happens to men also it certainly seems like smilless d i law has major influence on her husband.
I still will never understand it why do they have to choose?
I would never have wanted my in lawscut off but may ebif they hadn't been so lovely would been different?
Inclined to agree Yoga. Clearly someone who has not ‘followed’ ‘Smileless’ on these threads and would have an idea of the backstory. Patronising too, I thought.
Men do not always stand up to their wives - if only!
Sometimes a ‘quiet life’ with spouse and children means cutting off his parents, if so demanded. It happens.
I am fortunate in that my DS did stand up to his partner and it made his life extremely difficult but he made it possible for me to see my DCG. After 3 years his partner seems tohave decided that manipulation and telling lies is not the best path to a happy family life. She may or may not have seen the light but at least she is in touch again.
I do not expect a sea change but I guess it’s a start.
I understand flump that when you're talking about your m.i.l.'s relationship with her son, your husband, you are indeed referring to a toxic relationship.
When those who are estranged from their AC and GC are posting, like you, they are talking about their own personal experiences. My experience is one of a toxic d.i.l.. Your husband is not responsible for his mother's behaviour and therefore is not responsible for the CO. I am not responsible for our d.i.l.'s behaviour so am not responsible for being CO.
Our ES is responsible for not doing anything about it but preferring to go along with his wife which is why he must also take responsibility.
It's you who has missed the point bugsy. When on the eve of her engagement the future d.i.l. tells her future m.i.l. that she doesn't share, that has nothing to do with the understandable and only to be expected changes that will occur when they marry.
You must be aware of emotionally abusive relationships and also that the abuser is just as likely to be the woman as it is the man. The abuser seeks to distance their victim from those who may have some influence, who will see the toxic nature of the relationship and be prepared to say so. That's why they are CO.
Our son is a grown man, and sadly isn't the first and wont be the last when given the it's us (his wife and child) or them ultimatum (his parents), to cave in and do his wife's bidding.
In the beginning he was prepared to stand up to her absurd treatment of us, he would refute the false allegations that she made but once their first child was born he seemed unable or unwilling to do so.
"She would have found it a whole lot more difficult to cut you off if she had a good/loving relationship with you herself". You'd think so wouldn't you, but she was constantly telling me how much she loved me, I'd tell her I loved her too (which I did), on more than one occasion she told me she wished I was her mother.
Do you really believe that someone who cuts out her own parents on more than one occasion would have difficulty in cutting out her in laws, regardless of how loving and caring they'd been toward her? Only myself and Mr. S. attended their wedding which has held abroad so her parents wouldn't be there.
I do not blame our d.i.l. for our family problems, ultimately I blame our ES.
As you've posted, you don't know much at all about my family situation so you are in no position to assume that we wouldn't have been CO had there been resolvable issues. We were seeking to resolve the genuine 'issues' such as they were but the reasons given for CO have been a tissue of lies.
I don't need you to tell me the key to a successful family relationships bugsy. We are a large family on Mr. S.'s side and negotiate our relationships successfully. We have a very healthy relationship with our DS and had one with his wife, although sadly they're no longer together.
"The key to successful family relationships (especially where a DIL is concerned) is to accept her as a new daughter and not see the situation as losing a son. She would have found it a whole lot more difficult to cut you off if she had a good/loving relationship with you herself"
Oh Bugsy, if only life were that simple. From an obviously intelligent woman, this is so naive. You know my story. I couldn't have been more loving and welcoming. Why? Because I did love her, and the thought of really getting to know her and be able to share all the lovely, girly, womanly things that you can't really share with a son, delighted me. I consider myself a good judge of character, and realised at once that I mustn't overwhelm her. I really thought I'd called it just right, especially when we all had such great holidays together. She came because she wanted to, I was going anyway. Imagine how thrilled I was when she became pregnant....with a little girl!! I would never have interfered, it's not my style, but in any case, it wouldn't have been possible, due to geography. I truly have no idea why - or even when exactly - everything changed. What I do know though is that losing her, and as a result my granddaughter, has devastated both me and my son.
There is no one size fits all where relationships are concerned. For my sanity, and my health, but most importantly for my sons sake, I have had to accept things. I truly hope that by my backing away, their marriage can be saved, but that's up to them isn't it? As you know, I still have the unconditional love of my son. That's something she can't take away.....Rosy.x.
Fairydoll
*Yogagirl*.
Fairy doll you are right men don't always stand up to their wives,
In something so horrendous as estrangement I still feel the son or daughter are as smilelsss says in position to stand up for their parents if they wish to so must take responsibility also, all cases are different of course, but however great their partners influence they are also responsible.
In your sad case rosy it was cultural thing also?
Still impossible to understand?
I think forming successful relationships and maintains them is one of hardest things imo.
I is always easier to knock down bridges than build them up!
It takes years to build a strong friendship, yet to my cost I have discovered that a friend of over 40 years can turn out to be disloyal and v unkind.
This is so much worse when it is our flesh and blood,
I would like to think my daughter would not have behaved like this without my s inlaw influence but sadly I will never know for sure,
.
When those who are estranged from their AC and GC are posting, like you, they are talking about their own personal experiences. My experience is one of a toxic d.i.l.. Your husband is not responsible for his mother's behaviour and therefore is not responsible for the CO. I am not responsible for our d.i.l.'s behaviour so am not responsible for being CO Exactly, that is what I have been saying. Sometimes people need to do it for their own mental health.
I understand how you feel about your son but life might not be easy for him. Do you feel you can forgive him if things change?
It isn't easy is it.
I think forming successful relationships and maintains them is one of hardest things imo. That is so true. I have 3 DsIL, all very different with very different parenting styles, one very like me and the other two with very different views. I sometimes have to bite my tongue and remember it isn't my baby, my toddler, my teenage monster (I'm happy to let them get on with the last one!)
With the one family my DIL has mental health problems and she and my son have split up. When she attempted suicide Social Services placed the children with me. I worked so hard to repair my relationship with her, she obviously really resented me having the children and I understand that. I still have more time with her children than my other GC as they need me more but it is a tightrope I walk.
They often ask my opinion but even then I am very very careful about what I say. It is easy to make a throw away remark and then the other person can go away and overthink it. I look forward to my DD having children as I think it will be easier but time will tell.
TBH flump the only answer I can give is I don't know. I'd like to believe that if he were genuinely sorry for everything that he's done I would be able to forgive him but even then, I don't know if I'd ever want him back in my life again.
He almost destroyed me and I don't think I could risk it. As much as I love him, and I do, if he were to cut me out again I wouldn't be able to come back a second time.
That's what I don't understand
the need to bite ones tongue, to be careful about what you say even if it's in response to being asked for your opinion.
I can understand the need to take extra care with your d.i.l. whose had problems flump but not as a general rule of thumb.
For goodness sake, can't the parents of AC have an opinion of their own any more and be able to express it without the fear of being CO for doing so? I'm not saying that's the case for you flump but it certainly comes across that way in many posts that appear on GN.
Smilelss that is very true.
I just have this horror of going to my grave estranged.
It's affected my physical and mental health and my dear husbands over last 9 years, how could it not?
We don't bring a child into the world and love and support them totally for 28years expecting them to reject us do we?
My future d i law has been wonderful support to me over last 6 years she is kind and thoughtful. However I have bite my tongue at times as I feel my ds had lot to cope with 2 stepsons but we have become very fond of them so they are like our step grandsons. It's our sons choice and I can see he is happy parenting them, not that it's easy now they teenagers?,
I would love for him to give us a grandchild of our own and they do speak of it, but time is running on!
I think smilless if your son asked forgiveness you love him enough to do that like I would but we would be very wary having as you say all but destroyed us.
I would need to ask why? My daughter told me that August afternoon we sorted our differences she would never stop me seeing xxxxxx that's exactly what she did.
Someone influenced her to do that don't you think?
123 flump that's been difficult for you and your daughter i law. It good that she accepted help nough and didn't turn against you can imagine it must have taken a lot of effort.
Smilless I do agree we entitled express opinions.
Sometimes regarding other stuff it's best keep quiet, I have learnt that over the years.
It's a shame as in ideal world we should be able to say what we feel, I know for example if I mention my daughter to our ds he will go quiet at best at worst say he doesn't want discuss it,
I think he feels lot of anger at her callous treatment of us as he knows firsthand all we did for her.
We have an email from our ES Celeb in which he says 'we'll never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him".
Yes, I think I would forgive him if he asked me too but having him back in my life would I think, be a step too far.
Dear Celeb
I've accepted that things will never change. The thought of going to my grave estranged doesn't horrify me, but the thought of my mother going to hers having been CO by me certainly would.
Smileless it is very sad.
Re biting your tongue, I can understand a young mum taking offense if they take it as judging them or criticism. I made my mistakes and I respect their rights to make their own. I don't think they would cut me out if I said something, but maybe they would, but I think they are more likely to be open and trusting with me if they don't see me as judgemental. I do find it strange that two of them say they will ask me rather than their own mums as I don't interfere but then their mothers are quite forceful about their opinions.
My husband is more likely to open his mouth and they seem to accept that. Somehow I think MIL treads a more tricky path.
Smilless have sent u pm
I do wonder does your son or my daughter ever have twinge of remorse for assuring us they would t stop contact then doing exactly that?
Yep 123flump is sad but we try not to wallow don't we girls?
I think normally a daughter would be closer it breaks my heart to know mine can do withOut me, we never know how life will turn out she used to chastise my dear son for i.e. Once forgot Mother's Day, he was in army and away but guess he turned out to be the genuine one it's so hard to wonder if all those lovey Dover cards and letters were meaningless, still have them but can't bear look at them now,
Thank you Fairydoll
Smileless excellent post again. Like you, I did get on with my s.i.l. When I cut my holiday short, to come back to help them -both- with their 'big argument' that resulted in this estrangement and my D staying with me. He came round, put his arms round me and said ^ I don't want to fall out with you D, I don't want this to effect our relationship^ Looking back now, I can see what he was doing, he was trying to get me on his side against my own D, which would never have happened in a milliseconds. Whilst away he was phoning me every half an hour, whereas I couldn't get hold of my D to speak to her, all the time he was convincing me & my ND that it was all her fault! Also, as I've said before and like you S I recognize my D is to blame for the estrangement, as without her agreement it could never have gone ahead, but he & his mother where the master minds and my D would never have done this without them pushing her.
Rosy you come across as such a lovely person, and I've no doubt that's what you are. You have given your son that's kept loyal to you, the ability to deal with this tragic separation of his mother & his child and if there is a God up there, I think you will be seeing your beloved GD in the not too distant future. God Bless xx
I'm the opposite to you in regards to forgiving Smileless I would like my estD back in my life, but I could never forgive her cruelty to me, to her sister and to her little girl, my beloved GD, who's had everyone that loved and adored her & she us, ripped out of her little life, she was made to grieve for us at such a tender age
I'd like to share with you this passage from the book I'm reading at the moment called 'The gift of anger' by Arun Gandhi:
Harilal had been raised with the same kindness and love and moral guidance that my grandparents gave to my father and his brothers. So no matter how many times I review this story, I can't see how Bapuji [his grandfather] was to blame for Harilal's failures. When parents have done everything they can and problems persist, they have to forgive themselves. Nature sometimes creates a negative temperament no matter how ardently and honourably we nurture our children
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