Support for all who are living with estrangement

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

What's important is that you're together on this hdh and it looks as if you are. It's also important that your son knows this too.

Thank you again smileless2012 - also decided I needed a new name, and I hope it will be the beginning of a new start for me too. Night night and good dreams all.

Morning ladies. Had a good night, albeit with help from a couple of 'Nytols'. Woke up thinking about ES as usual, but feeling inspired by Buddhism this morning (I'm not actually Buddist but I see good in many bits of different religions, and I try to be 'Christian' in the way I treat people though I don't embrace all of it. But being Buddist this morning in that I accept life has suffering and we can make it more bearable by altering our expectations and by wanting to tread in the world gently and with kindness. I can't make the world treat me the way I want back in return but I can feel peace in my own attempts at kindness.
Was also thinking about the whole new thinking that has inspired the generation that has gone NC. There is strength in having boundaries, and there is strength in saying clearly to someone else what you want. Concrete is strong.
But it isn't flexible. And concrete doesn't just make boundaries it makes barriers, walls. I think many of the new generation have been conned into mistaking walls for healthy boundaries. By focussing on your own needs clearly you become self-sufficient and strong. But isolated. So what if my neighbour's distress is not my problem? Maybe I choose to make it my problem for a while. Because that's what a community does. Maybe they do over-step the mark sometimes by leaning on another person. But as long as they offer a shoulder back, or to another when they have got back on their own feet, isn't that also what makes a community? When did asking for and giving help mean ONLY paying for therapy or hanging out with people who agree with you on the internet. And I'm not disregarding either of those as means of help, goodness knows you wonderful people are helping me so much atm, but it's not the only way we can open up to other people.
Wishing, light, love and peace to you all today, even if only in small measures or small ways sometimes. xxx

A lovely post to start the day, thank you hugshelp and what a great 'name'.

Love the new name, hugshelp! And love the thought-provoking post!

I'm glad that dh remained calm when replying to es, despite es' anger and foul language. I agree with Smileless, however, that dh should have said, "Your mother and I..." Actually, he should have discussed the idea of continuing to invite es with you before telling him that at all. But I realize he meant well and felt the need to give an immediate response.

Imo, spouses need to stand together, united. However, it can be very difficult to do that, imo, where close family is concerned. That's why some dss still visit their parents even if dil is on the outs with them. And I think that's why dh has tried to maintain a relationship with your son, even though he is estranged from you. I respect Mr. S' decision to stand by Smileless 100%. But I get if some parents can't do that when it comes to the ac and gc.

If my own dh were ever estranged from our ac, I can't imagine giving my ac and gc up, myself, and besides, I would be dh's only source of info and pictures of them, etc. If it were vice versa, I would totally understand if he wanted to maintain contact with them.

I can't imagine leaving dh alone on a holiday, etc., though to see our ac and gc if it came to that. I would have to see them on some alternate day. And I would expect the same, in return, from dh.

However, I don't think it will be an issue for you and dh anymore. Now that dh has spoken up for you, I imagine es will co him, too, sadly. Es made the mistake of thinking he could have dh in his life w/o you and that everything would go along happily w/o anyone bringing up your name. Imo, that was unrealistic and couldn't possibly last.

Best wishes to you and as together you navigate this estrangement. And yes, more hugs!

I just had a talk with a lawyer about setting up Power of Attorney and mentioned my estranged elder son, adding, in case he felt I was moaning, 'But I'm sure I'm not the only one whose child won't have anything to do with them.'

He said, 'I deal with hundreds of cases a year and it's getting worse.'

So if we ever thought we were alone - we're not.

I'm not surprised BradfordLass72 - someone on another thread mentioned all the sites that are full of EC on forums especially to support NC and against Nparents (that narcissitic parents apparently). Now I get some people are narcissitic, some are seriously abusive, and I'm sure we all behave selfishly and made mistakes sometimes etc, but on just one forum I stumbled on there were posts by hundreds of users in one day. All saying their parents were terrible and they had gone or were going to go NC. They have all sorts of jargon about it, things like 'flying monkeys' - that's people in the family who give any info to the people you've gone NC with. Apparently there's a script, and not engaging with the parents in any way is crucial - if you let them know your reasons for going NC they will only try to persuade you that you're wrong etc etc.
The thing that struck me was the huge gulf between the tone on here and on there. Yes people get upset and angry on here, but they try to find understanding and there is so much caring. Their forum is all about anger and how badly they have been treated. One example was how a parent was 'starving' their son - because his sister had to come home and sleep on the couch for a couple of weeks so he wasn't allowed to go down for snacks in the middle of the night as it was waking her up. He was therefore leaving home and going NC.
I gave up reading when I got to the post about the grandmother who was using her Alzeimer's as an excuse for her bad behaviour.
Yes the examples I've given were a couple of the worst ones, but the tone throughout was very much the same.

We've been told in the past that NC isn't becoming an epidemic when it is BradfordLass I wonder how many other solicitors get 100's of cases a year.

You did well to read as much of that forum hugshelp, I tend to avoid them; too depressing and not good for one's blood pressure.

Starved because you can't go down in the middle of the night for a snack. I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

Just adding to this trend of thought in the last few posts, I had a conversation with a much younger colleague who had thought that last year's difficulty with my SiL had all been resolved and she said, 'He just doesn't like you. Some people don't like parents around.'

To hear her say that was a bit of a shock, especially as for many years, they had been welcome in my home and us in theirs and this treatment came as a huge shock. They have been together for 30 years this year and this change of mood is very recent.

I know I was very needy when my 2nd marriage broke down, but that was 8 years ago and I have rebuilt my life and restored my career since then.

We must carry on and make the very best of our lives.

we must carry on we spent most of our lives bringing them up
we mustn't spend the rest of our lives wondering what we did wrong
we have to be strong and happy for our own sanity

Yes nannytracey and we mustn't assume that the fault lies with us when it may well lie with them.

Ginny, if sil's attitude is of recent vintage, is it possible he is ill in some way? Even a physical illness can sometimes impact a person's attitude and behavior. I remember, years ago, my dad getting more and more belligerent (verbally only) towards my mum till she began to suspect a health problem. He admitted he hadn't been feeling well, overall, and didn't know why. Turned out, sadly, he had cancer (from which he dies a year later). But once he knew why he wasn't feeling well, he acted much better.

Yes, good on you, hugshelp, for reading on young people's forums. Imo, it gives insight as to what's going on. Sadly, though, this idea of going nc is getting out of hand.

"Apparently there's a script, and not engaging with the parents in any way is crucial"

I have mixed feeling about this^^^. Otoh, I know it's very painful for the parents to lose such total contact with their ac. Otoh, it prevents mixed messages. Years ago, I recall, when two people "weren't speaking," sometimes they would confuse he matter by sending a message through a third party or a note. Today, people are being advised to avoid those contact-but-no-contact situations. I can see where it may be less confusing, if not less harsh

" - if you let them know your reasons for going NC they will only try to persuade you that you're wrong etc etc. "

So this^ may be the reason some ac don't really explain their reasons for going nc! Wow! I never heard that one! No doubt, the parents would argue/give their side of the matter. Imo, that's very normal. But I don't think that's a reason not to give your motives, at least one. After that, imo, you (general ac) never have to discuss it again. But it seems only fair to me to let them know one time, rather than leave them in the dark. Not up to me, though, of course.

Sometimes Iv read where ac say they told their parents their reasons, but the parents didn't believe them so kept asking. And so, the ac decided not to discuss it again b/c the arguments and denials would just continue. I get not wanting to go through it over and over. But Iv never heard of not telling the reasons to begin with b/c the parents might argue. Imo, that's just cowardly. And so sad.

hugshelp If those are severe cases, then what I've read here (and experienced myself) is WAY over the top in severity !!

I won't go into it again, it's on GN somewhere but what happened to us, and you hugshelp is a lot worse.

To go nc because you cannot get a midnight snack is very childish - but then it sounds as if these are children.

When mature, intelligent adults start lying and fantasising about what they say you've done (when you know darned well you haven't); when they abuse you for no reason and decide they are going to cut you from their lives -and you are completely in the dark as to why - then that's severe.
Midnight snacks are not.
I used to weep for myself and my situation.
Now, after reading posts on GN, I weep for all the poor parents who have just begun to experience the heartache and grief I went through, many years ago.

Sometime around thanksgiving holiday NPR aired a segment on this subject - The response they received during and after the program was so significant they aired a second segment on the same subject -

What I took away from the "expert" they had on was to:

*listen to your adult children regarding how the "feel"

*own up to where you went wrong as a parent

*offer apologies and explanations

I've read the scripts being offered on other forums, too, the guidelines on how to cut your parents out of your life and the reasoning behind it - My only real problem with it is they're teaching it to their kids - And on and it goes, one generation after the next practicing deflecting accountability at all costs instead of addressing the problem/s -

Is that really what anyone truly wants?

When I've offered apologies to my children as both a person and a parent I didn't accept any suggestions that I didn't lend to any of their issues any less than any of their successes - There has to be some measure of accountability for any meaningful discussion to occur -

The trouble is rosecarmel , some of us don't conform to this pattern.

listen to your adult children regarding how they feel

I didn't get the chance. One week it was lovely, happy 2 hour phone call full of laughter, the next a letter telling me we would no longer be in contact and listing a whole swag of reasons why not.

own up to where you went wrong as a parent

Gladly, I did lots of things wrong, what parent does not but we were always a very strong, loving family who talked about our issues, solved and forgave them.
Right up to the moment I got the letter from my elder son.

I never hesitate to admit it when I'm wrong. It comes from having parents who never were and didn't believe in apologies, however much they hurt people.

But I wasn't accused of anything I had actually done - it was all made up, fantastic things which neither I nor my other son could understand. Short of a brain storm, we still don't understand why he said these things.

offer apologies and explanations

I certainly apologised when replying to the letter but it had to be a sort of general apology along the lines of, 'If I've done anything at all to upset or hurt you, I am genuinely sorry but PLEASE darling, tell me what it is because I don't understand the things in this letter'.

How can you apologise for, or explain things you know you haven't done?

I never heard from him again, though my grand-daughter has had sporadic contact. With her too he went from effusive friendliness to a sort of formal coldness.

I had hoped on my 70th I might get a word but there was nothing. Now I know if I were seriously or even terminally ill, he wouldn't come to see me after such a long time. His stubborn pride would not allow it even if he's since realised how unwise he was.

No doubt I'll die without ever seeing or hearing from my beloved son ever again.

and at what point do these estranging adult children listen to their parents regarding how they feel, own up to where they've gone wrong as adult children and offer apologies and explanations.

*listen to your adult children regarding how the "feel"

If it's made up, then I get how the parent wouldn't understand it. Same if they've projected other family's problems onto yours. Iv heard of both on this site and irl.

But Bradford, I don't see what difference it makes if the issues are explained in person or in an email, except the email may seem colder. Either way, they're still saying how they feel. If the parents don't understand what they're talking about, it could be a matter of mismatched perceptions, unless, again, it's pure fabrication.

*offer apologies and explanations

I'd be careful about "explanations." On MN and similar sites Iv seen them referred to as "excuses." And that was the reply to one of my egp friends when she tried to explain herself. Explanations are tricky. Would a simple apology have worked? Idk. That's what they say on MN, ec., but idk how that plays out irl.

Iv also seen where hey say they don't accept "general apologies" b/c they feel that means the parent isn't "admitting" what they did wrong. The fact that the parent might not get their gripes doesn't seem to register.

My best advice is this:

Love your kids, even when they act like idiots -

When my husband died my brother in-law encouraged me to mourn the loss of the whole man, warts and wonderfulness - And the same advice can be applied to the estranged, too - It won't do anyone any good to remain in a state of disapproval or denial despite not being able to recognize or identify with the actions taken by those now estranged - It almost seems like a terrible mystery to devote time to analyzing and trying to figure out - And it almost seems a much healthier choice would be to leave the solving of that mystery up to the individual who left the brood -

There's no way of knowing for certain if the estranged is actually in a happier place after they make the break - Especially if the reasons offered for their leaving can't be identified with to begin with -

The only thing I know about estrangement for certain is:

*people who leave their family aren't better people than the people they leave behind, but they leave because they want to be better people -- or worse, in some cases -

*if they leave without carrying some measure of affection and gratitude for their family of origin, their efforts will always be tainted with bitterness, hindering the growth they set out to achieve -

How hateful and ridiculous seem so many of these attitudes of estranging AC. How arrogant and adolescent. Can I say "fascist" too? It as if GPs have been put on trial, often without knowing or having only a scant understanding of the charges against them in the first place and without recourse to a defence lawyer or hope of being listened to and treated fairly and reasonably. They are often cut off because, without a decent amount and quality of dialogue taking place beforehand or without any dialogue taking place beforehand, on what often appears to be arbitrary whim, without consideration of context and without curiosity, tolerance, forgiveness, loving kindness or goodwill, the prosecution has judged them guilty and passed sentence.

The common basis for the charge, it seems, is that the GPs have been judged to be imperfect beings who deserve to be degraded and to suffer. Perhaps seeing themselves as both self-righteous paragons/moral arbiters and victims of - what? - imperfect nurturing? older people who also have opinions, wishes, needs, feelings etc.?, they are frequently triggered, offended or outraged. Within this adversarial scenario, there is often no taking into account their own fallibility, moral lapses and responsibility and no expressed acknowledgement and appreciation of the positive qualities of these GPs who are seen, presumably, as one or two-dimensional characters. There is often no admission of doubt or of the possibility of holding mixed and even contradictory points of view. The implementation of the punishment of NC and harshly negative view of the GPs are without time limit and beyond the GPs' scope of influence. Apologies proffered by GPs are likely to be rejected within a cultural climate that encourages many of these things and, some opine, family breakdown itself.

If this bleak picture contains kernels of truth, it would be interesting to try posting some version of it on MumsNet and to see what sorts of responses it attracts.

Why poke a toxic, bitter beehive when you've the option to take a deep breath instead?

There's a reason beekeepers throw on white suits and use smoke to retrieve honey ..

And those that don't employ those practices approach the hive slowly and gently remove the honey ..

What I have found slightly encouraging nevertheless, rosecarmel, is the occasional post on MumsNet that conveys interest in some of the discussions taking place in these GransNet threads. Perhaps we are planting some seeds here and there.

A touch of humour might help in the beginning. For example:
"90% of parenting is just thinking about when you can lie down again" - unknown

We've all been there to a degree at some point in the past, surely?! We empathise from remembered experience.

We might say, for example, "Every parent struggles at times. Parenting children can be surprisingly hard work, sometimes stretching coping abilities close to the limit, and can bring up some 'unfinished business' from your own childhood or make you more sensitive to childhood problems that other people have described. If you find that your relationship with your parents or parents-in-law is under a lot of strain and you are contemplating going NC, try instead to talk things over/keep talking things over with minimal judging, arguing and blaming and without making the other mistake of bottling things up too much.

Beware: don't assume that you know what your child's GPs are thinking (mind-reading) or that what you think must be totally correct just because you think it! Be curious about other interpretations/perspectives, be aware that you may not know everything about a situation but have gaps in your knowledge (as do we all, GPs included) and strive to stay kind insofar as this is possible for you. Own your emotions, opinions and expectations - use the word "I" - and try to explain openly and calmly what is in your mind and why you feel distressed. Focus on listening carefully to your child's GPs too and aim to do your bit to keep the channels of communication open to some extent to allow dialogue to take place. If your emotions are running too high and you feel overwhelmed, how about trying a period of counselling or accessing other possible forms of additional help and support?"