How do I forget they exist?

Oh OK Rosecarmel but even if this is the case, we come on here for support because we're hurting. Some of us would do anything to turn the clocks back and have the chance to reconcile. We're just people and no one thinks we're perfect

Rose Carmel, I suggest you walk in my shoes then tell me what how you feel. Reading statistics and coming up with a generalisation is pointless and very hurtful.

Everything you have mentioned in your posts Rosecarmel can be, and often is what estranged P's and GP's experience because it's the behaviour of their AC who are estranging them.

Yes, there are parents who due to their abusive treatment of their C become estranged and there are also P's who become estranged because of the abusive treatment they are receiving from their AC.

In both cases it is often the case that the abuser sees nothing wrong in the way they've behaved. An abusive parent doesn't recognise what they've done and the AC who is abusing their parents by refusing all contact and withdrawing GC without justification, can just as strongly argue that they are not responsible for the estrangement.

As is often stated here on GN, we only get to hear one side of the story; that's true and is relevant whether it is an estranging AC who is posting or an estranged P/GP.

There are numerous historical examples here on GN however, where an estranging AC is rarely challenged and asked what they may have done to contribute or even cause the rift but, this is a common theme when 'support' and 'advice' is being given to the estranged P/GP.

In order to give as much help and support as possible a support thread for those living with estrangement has been running here on GN for more than 6 years. Over the years posters have been driven away because of some of the responses they've received. Threads of this nature have once again, on this thread, been ridiculed by referring to them as echo chambers.

The OP on this thread has not posted for some time and stated that she was being upset and frustrated by some of the responses received.

As you say Rosecarmel those who are estranged be they the estranging AC or the estranged parent are hurting and begin a new thread on this topic, or share on an existing thread for support.

Not everyone will be in agreement at all times, but is it necessary to make hurtful and confrontational comments? For example for an estranged P and GP to be told by another poster that that poster knows why they are estranged?

Many GN's contribute to offer advice and support whether or not they themselves are estranged, for both the estranged and the estranging. Sadly, some come on to rub salt into the wound and this is usually directed at those who have lost AC and GC because of this tragic situation.

Namsnanny thank you

well said Smileless, I also didnt post for a good year, I didnt even look at gransnet because of upsetting responses by posters who have never been estranged!

Support comes in many different forms though.
This isn't a support thread it's a post by a lady, a mum who is looking for answers, just because posters, including myself, can see it from another person's perspective doesn't make us bitter or unsympathetic.
OP only seems to understand it from her perspective and her frame of mind.

Maybe it's because I can see it from the estranged persons side (I'm married to one) and can see it from both sides. I'm a mom too but unless the OP can see it from her Daughters point of view aswell as her own, nothing will improve.

A line needs to be drawn in the sand. Apologies on both sides need to be made. Acknowledgment on both sides and start a fresh. Relationships are give and take and needs understanding and work. This sounds like a very fragile relationship which has broken down over the years. The poxy Lego was the straw that broke the camel's back.

It's good to see you back Jenty and I hope you are here to stay.

I guess we need to filter out some of the responses that are given. I don't mean that we should disregard those that may be challenging or not in agreement with our own, but those that are confrontational, rude and hurtful.

I agree March viewing a situation differently doesn't necessarily mean that someone is being unsympathetic or bitter. That said it's all about the delivery of that view isn't it.

Not easy to draw a line in the sand, or both sides apologising if there is only one willing participant. Wish it were that easy!

You're right Jenty! If it was that easy I suppose the world would be a happier place.

I know there are different level of this. I know it's not Black and White, but sometimes, in some cases, it does take acknowledgment from both sides. It has been a build up of arguments and not seeing things from each others point of view etc.
It does snowball.

Some people can't seem to utter the words 'I'm sorry' it's not in their vocab. Which is a shame as (for our situation at least....well I think anyway) that's all it would take.

A line in the sand, some understanding and a lowering of expectations.

I think that works both ways though Smileless.

I posted on one thread and I was called the 'Daughter in law from hell', Evil and Nasty. Been called Controlling and selfish. I had my post twisted and then dragged into another thread and I was spoke about so horribly.
The poster lied about my situation and made up a story out of thin air about the estragment. I had to get Gransnet involved because it was a pack of vile lies about my husband abandoning his mum when she had cancer.

Another time I posted that my MIL had sent abusive messages to my husband. I was told by a poster that she didn't believe me and my MIL was probably just upset.

I could go on really, but those are the 2 that stick out the most. It's a good job I have fairly thick skin but tbh, they hurt.

So please, make that a blanket rule for everyone posting. No matter what side of the fence. Delivery is key. We are all human.

That's horrible March and that's why I posted earlier this morning.

No one should be subjected to that type of response. I also have a pretty thick skin but have been hurt over the years by some of the comments I've received. Perhaps my skin is thicker than I realize, as I've been taking part in discussions about estrangement for more than 6 years.

Some posters are more sensitive and vulnerable than others. Even if an opinion that's given is diametrically opposed to our own, if it's expressed in a considered way the receiver is more likely to consider what's been said.

I'm glad that your upsetting experiences haven't deterred you from continuing to contribute to this difficult and painful topic.

I understand emotions run high when with topics like this. The hurt and anger is still there, no matter how much time has gone and what side you're batting for. It might not be as strong but it's still there.
It's such an emotional subject so I understand people lash out. Like I said, we are only human.

Estrangement is estrangement ...I'm not sure why anyone would be batting for a side really! I totally agree with Smileless and others that posting on here should be constructive but not unkind. Disagreement doesn't have to be personal!

Madgran77.....I couldn't agree with you more!!

I wish people would try to use your comments as a yard stick before they deliver their pearls of wisdom.

I think some people are just looking for a subject to dump their grievances on.

I avoid for the most part political threads for that reason, but any thread seems to attract obnoxious self appointed 'experts' at times!

Some people seem to think the world cant exist unless they've told someone else how wrong they are!!

IMV that's the difference between just making a noise and offering genuine unbiased advice...……..which by the way is only an opinion not truth as some would have us believe.

And, lets be honest here, advice is there for the recipient to choose to act on.
Not to be forced by way of squabbling and name calling or shamed into taking.

BTW, Sorry you had such a terrible time March.

Namsnanny Thanks

JEMz, IDK if you're still reading here or not, but if you are my heart goes out to you! Even though you will soon see your beloved GS, I get that you're feeling insecure about your whole relationship w/ DD - and b/c of that w/ GS - and I totally understand that.

I agree that it is completely reasonable for you to have some toys at your home for GS to enjoy when he's there, and at your mum's for him to play w/ at her house. Also, I feel DD sends mixed messages when she asks you not to bring anymore toys to her house and then complains when you don't buy a Lego set for her home.

But it definitely seems as if this is about more than the Legos or any other toys, and that your relationship w/ DD is a checkered one. It may very well be, as PPs (previous posters) have suggested, that she is jealous of your relationship w/ GS.

If you don't mind, I think there are a few mistakes that you may be making, too - well-intentioned, no doubt, but, unfortunately, exacerbating the situation. Mostly, they fall under the heading of not considering/respecting DD's wishes for her child or her home. For example, as a PP pointed out, you promised GS a toy for his house w/o checking w/ his mum/DD first. And I'm sorry to add, even though you knew DD said she didn't want you to send any more toys. When DD asked you to ask about seeing GS, yourself, you turned around and had your mum message her instead. I understand why, I really do. But can you see that she may have seen this as another disrespect of her wishes? In the future, I strongly recommend that you take her wishes more seriously. You won't always be able to accommodate them, of course. But it seems to me it would be worth trying to do so a little more.

IMO, there is hope here. Look how it worked when you respected her wish that you contact her partner about visiting w/ GS! It may not have come about as quickly and easily as you would like, but you are getting to see him. That tells me you don't have to "forget they exist," you just need to respect DD's wishes, if possible, and it, apparently, goes a long way.

"I thought I needed time away from my daughter so I decided to not contact him as I usually did every week"

I get why you felt you needed time away from DD. And I realize that to talk w/ GS, you would first have to talk w/ her. But can you see your decision not to contact HIM as usual may have seemed to her as if you were punishing HIM for the conflict between you and her? And do you realize that you are the one who initiated this semi-estrangement, not DD? Some posters are reacting as if she CO (cut off) you, but she didn't - you CO her.

And if you think about it, I'm sure you'll realize that it's difficult to get to see the GC when you (general GP) CO the mum. Fortunately, in this case, you can arrange to see him through the dad. Please just enjoy the visit and don't brush off the chance for future visits if it's there. Keep working through the dad if you don't feel you can approach DD. Please also accept that the visits may not be as frequent as they were in the past and that you need to fill your life w/ other things (friends, hobbies, volunteering, your work, whatever keeps your mind off your strained relationship w/ your DD).

One other thought... DD may have seen the messages from your partner and your mum as your trying to get other people to pressure her into doing your will. (I'm NOT saying you were doing this, just that SHE might have seen it that way.) As you say, you did this b/c you were "desperate." Please try, however, to avoid involving 3rd parties in the future. I don't think it will ever go over well.

Hugs! And hugs to all others in this thread who are dealing w/ difficult family relations or estrangement!

Starlady

I agree with you completely.

GPs do not get to decide what types of toys will and will not be allowed at an AC's home. They can only decide what they will allow at their home. If a parent says no, it is not acceptable to go behind a parent's back and do it anyway. That also teaches GC that it's okay if Mum says no, because I can just go to Grandma and Grandma will make it okay.

It's also not okay to ask a third party to get involved. Another adult has a right not to have a relationship with you. Trying to force a relationship is not acceptable. If someone tried to claim that they had a "right" to have a relationship with me or with my children, they would be astonished at how fast contact was severed.

but the OP didn't go behind her D's back and buy toys for her GS that her D said were unacceptable agnurse. Have you read this thread?

It was the D who was annoyed because the lego had been bought for the OP's home and OP's parents' home and was not all to be taken to her home.

In our experience, when our boys were young they weren't taught to go to their GP's because they'd make things OK, they just did and despite the difficult relationship I had with my m.i.l. it would never have occurred to me to make a mountain out of a very small molehill and stop her from seeing our boys, her GC.

I agree that engaging a third party is not the way to go, but trying to find ways of building bridges before the situation gets totally out of hand, is not the same as forcing a relationship.

Wrote a long post then lost it!

Smileless, Thanks for taking the time to point out to some, the lack of care taken when reading other posters!

I'm beginning to wonder if it is a sign of a calcified thought process?
Meaning a person is so sure they know what is being written or said they don't disdain to actually hear or read it?
They go into auto pilot thinking they know where this is going, and jump to the wrong and bias conclusion?

It would explain a lot lol!

Smileless2012, it's true that only bits and pieces of stories are revealed- But even those pieces can be revealing-

You suggested that abusers refuse to admit to their actions- And perhaps they also refuse to admit that their actions are abusive- But Smiless2012, you yourself in so many words expressed that it's acceptable to love your son but not like him- How is that any different?

Historically, in forums as well as support groups, some members offer blame as a way to show support, as in blame others for the situation an OP or contributor finds themselves in- Sometimes employing name calling- Before you know it, others pick up on it- Daughters and sons gain labels like skunk bugger of a son or scat faced daughter in-law- The result is a pejorative echo, which frequently isn't a thing people are seeking and look elsewhere for constructive conversation -

And when some members don't agree with another, or like their delivery, they make efforts to shut that person down- Examples of that dynamic are rife on this site and elsewhere, of course- Quite often direct comments are mistaken for salt and pejorative comments mistaken for salve ..

"Wrote a long post them lost it!"

Just as well ..

"Skunk bugger of a son?" "Scat-faced daughter-in-law?" Whoa! LOL! I haven't heard those from any mums or MILs, and I'm sorry if you have rosecarmel. I admit, I have heard some very negative comments about sons and DILs (and sometimes daughters and SILs) on GP sites, just as I've heard some very negative comments about parents and PILs on young mother/DIL sites.

"It was the D who was annoyed because the lego had been bought for the OP's home and OP's parents' home and was not all to be taken to her home."

Smileless, I know this comment was addressed to agnurse, but I want to answer it, anyhow. What you're saying is accurate. But the OP also told us, " I was previously told not to buy him toys for his house because he had too many..." This is why, earlier, I said I feel her D is giving out mixed messages.

OTOH, this means that when JEMz promised GS a new Lego box for his house if he behaved, etc., she was making a promise that went against D's wishes. And that even though she told us that one of her reasons for not getting Legos for their house was b/c D said he had too many toys. IMO, there seems to be some confusion on both sides.

JEMz, I see I may have made an error in my earlier post. I said that you CO your D and not vice versa. But rereading, I see you said that if you don't contact them, you don't hear from them. So I get that you may feel that D has cut you off. IMO, she hasn't really, or she wouldn't talk to you or let you see GS at all. Seems more to me like she is trying to lower contact or just leaving it all up to you. That hurts, too, surely. But you haven't been CO, which is more than some GPs can say.

Hope you enjoy your visit w/ GS and have many more after that!

About loving an AC but not liking them - IMO, of course, it's possible! It may be more accurate to say "love AC but don't like their behavior/certain behaviors." But I think that's what most people mean when they make this statement. In fact, I doubt anybody here has actually told their AC, "I don't like you" though they may have said, "I love you, but I don't like the way you're treating me," etc. The love-but-don't-like issue is mostly something people express in forums like this, I believe. Hey, there is such a thing as a love/hate relationship, there can be a love/don't like so much relationship, too, surely. That's my opinion, anyway.