Narcissistic adult children

Deb, I had not idea your ED was a surgeon! Wow! And she accomplished that despite being deaf! Kudos to her for that! And to you and DH for raising such a smart - and probably, very strong - human being!

Unfortunately, I think Meeyou may be right, that ED's controlling personality is related to her being a surgeon. NOT saying this about all surgeons, but IME, some of them think that since they save/improve lives, they have the right to run the lives of those around them. It may be a very natural reaction to the life-saving work they do. And since, well, I hope this isn't insensitive, but, no doubt, ED had an obstacle to overcome or learn to work around. So she may feel even more as if she "sets the standard" for everyone around her.

I'm so sorry her positive qualities don't extend to being kind and caring towards her parents or DH.

"I can now see I was given the silent treatment and belittled whenever I didn’t do enough in her eyes."

See, this ^ is what I meant earlier. Sometimes, there are red flags all along the way, but one just doesn't see them, or, as rosecarmel suggested, doesn't know what they mean.

Hugs!

Starlady you are so right about not recognising or understanding the red flags!
Her behaviour has become increasingly arrogant since she returned to work a year ago after maternity leave so I think you have a point there too.
They told our son they are moving into rented accommodation. We just hope they meant it.

27.06-15.49 good mama...
I haven’t caught up on all the posts, but really i feel strongly about some of the things you have said.
Surely ac’s Have to Compromise too?
Sorry perhaps i miss read, but no one can expect one party to do all the leg work in a relationship.
Because then we are talking about narcissistic behaviour and as discussed, once someone shows this is their way of proceeding, it’s over!

Hindsight, as always, is 20/20, Deb. So sorry it turned out this way. I feel for poor DS, too, caught in the middle like this. Glad he's able to keep you informed though. Hope you and DH can find some peace after D and SIL move (if they really do).

You know, they earn over £150 000 between them. So why did they move in with us??
To use us.

Sigh...

Namsnanny, I agree, for a relationship to work both parties have to compromise a bit in the usual course of living if they want a relationship.

That being said, I do feel there are things people should not have to compromise in order to have a relationship with someone else.

Morals, dignity, their beliefs and the like should never be something someone has to compromise to have a relationship with someone else. In fact, I would say that if you have to compromise one of these things in order to have a relationship it's probably best not to have a relationship at all.

I also firmly believe that raising one's children falls into the same category. The only person a parent must compromise with in regards to their children is the other parent.

This includes what their children are taught, how they spend their time and who is allowed to influence the children.

These days children are influenced by more people and personality types than any other time in the history of mankind as a result of technology, and the internet of today is like yesterdays Madison Avenue advertisers of the 50's and 60's promoting perfection- Perfect family life, bodies, vacations etc .. In a nutshell, striving to perfectly promote "self"-

GoodM there is much in what you say but it feels rather hard to me. I have definitely compromised with my dignity and a little with my religion for the person my whole family believe to be narcissistic. It hasn't done any good but we did it because we hoped it would show a willingness to compromise and might be reciprocated. We were wrong.

Sadly Nonnie the words compromise and reciprocate aren't included in a narcissists vocabulary only total capitulation will do.

Too true Smile but really hard to understand how it makes them happy. There are so many things happening these days which seem to encourage people to think only of themselves which does seem to make it worse. I hope I am still around when the pendulum swings back the other way.

It has now appeared in fairly common usage which surprises me as it is a very rare personality disorder.

It is not a rare disorder, it is a rarely diagnosed disorder due to the nature of it. Someone with NPD is less likely to self present for diagnosis as someone with BPD so unless it is a consequential finding, it is rare for the person with the disorder to seek "help" with it.

And as gasslighting is often a feature of NPD, people with the disorder can be experts at fooling professionals and getting their victim to look like the problem, and themselves the victim.

However when it comes to ACs with NPD, their blaming of family is unlikely to be wholely untrue as there is usually persistant childhood traumas (not isolated events) in people with NPD.

Maybe they're not happy Nonnie; not really.

It's all about total power and control. What's the point of winning a game when you cheated so you didn't really win? What's the point of having relationships when you have those people/that person in your life and they're unable to have any real autonomy? When they only ever present the face you want to see for fear of recriminations?

I hope that "the pendulum swing back the other way" for our GC's sake. It does worry me; I wonder what kind of young men they'll eventually become.

It would be lovely if they became like their father used to be; kind, caring, loving and considerate but I don't know if they see any of those qualities in him now. I can only hope and pray that although he no longer presents those qualities to us, they are and will always be there for his children.

Quite right notanan a rarely diagnosed disorder but not a rare one.

We firmly believe that our ES's wife has NPD. I knew her mother for several years, before she ever met our son and she was subjected to persistent childhood traumas.

Most PDs start out as early attatchment disorders

There are fussy lines between the disorders too. People with BPD can exhibit narcisistic behaviours at time though they are often not narcisistic in motivation for the most part. And people with BPD tend to be similar but opposite to NPD (as in always believing they are the problem, even when they are not) which can externally manifest in similar ways/actions

"Fuzzy" lines..

notanan I only recently learned about 'gaslighting' and you are absolutely right. I could have written that post myself.

Smile You make some good points It must be so hard to see a man you know was a good man become something else, presumably under the control of a partner. It must be very hard for a man confronted with the choice of his partner and children or his family. I feel so sorry for them.

Reading what you are all saying makes me so glad that it is not one of my AC who has this issue. I feel so fuortunate.

Thats the problem smileless, as with your case, the trauma can be real, but then the blame and facts can be misdirected.

I have had dealings with someone with narc traits who blamed me for things that happened before I was born!

Their anger and hurt was very real I have no doubt about that, but all of the resulting rage got aimed at me for some reason. And no attempts at injecting any logic to the situation would defuse it.

I think they ended up wholeheartedly believing their own lies. Even in the face of pretty solid evidence against.

Its like the little boy in the Snow Queen: the ugly version of reality they see it real to them.

If you DIL has had metaphorical glass put in her eye by her own childhood traumas. She will see you as having ugly motives towards her. And that is 100% real to her.

Its sad really

Oh notanan I think we know the same person! We were accused of all sorts of things we simply didn't do. We were able to prove some of them to be untrue but our accuser still said we did them. So many things were alluded to but no examples ever given and the narcissist managed to convince people that we were terrible people. Of course those so convinced didn't know us and when one of them did they were really surprised.

I often wonder if this person believed all they said but it all came from inside their head and was not true. Thoughts, motivation and feelings were attributed to us which were completely false and we always thought they must be the way the narcissist themselves would have thought and behaved. We tried killing with kindness but it didn't work.

We only properly realised that a friend's husband was a narcissist after he'd died. Until then he'd just been very selfish and self centred, while outwardly very charming to 99.9% of the world, and wanting to be the centre of attention, which he very often was, because of the sheer force of his personality and the outward charm and good-bloke-ness.

It was only after he died that things he'd so very cleverly hidden for so many years, came to light. His poor wife was devastated, but only then did we recognise the classic signs of narcissism.

It can be so hard to tell BPD from NPD from the outside.

Both sabotage people/relationships. Same actions, different motivations:

BPD destruct relationships because they think they are unworthy of love. They have insight into what they are doing but still feel compelled to act destructively. They know they are wrong but also blamw themselves when they are not wrong. Outwardly charming/sociable until they doubt your affection for them then they "test" you by treating you so badly that you end up stepping back, then they feel they are proved correct in their feeling of being unlovable.

NPD = no insight! Thoroughly feel 100% in the right. Outwardly charming and sociable unless they feel that acting that way to you offers them no personal/financial/social gain/benefit, then they will seek to destroy you.

But in PRACTICE the behaviours/actions can be the same