Narcissistic adult children

If you asked a lot of those people why they thought they had a poor relationship the adult children but most likely be blamed because they were just doing what grandparents do

It has now appeared in fairly common usage which surprises me as it is a very rare personality disorder.

Rarely diagnosed is not the same thing as rare

By definition, a narcissist is unlikely to present themselves for assessment as they wont consider themselves to be the problem. Therefore diagnosis is very unlikely in mosr cases

Ocassionally it is diagnosed as an incidental finding when they present for otherreasons

I totally agree notanan. A narcissist isn't going to accept there is anything wrong with them so won't go to a doctor. it will always be someone else's fault. The one I know accuses people of thinking all sorts of things which would never occur to them but it shows the way the narcissist thinks. This person alludes to all sorts of bad behaviour in others and get people to believe it but never actually gives examples. Very manipulative.

Yes, folks, I'm sure there must be some GPs who are not very understanding but my suspicion is that there are a lot less than controlling ACs. Just think about the difference in life now to when most of us became parents. We didn't put ourselves and our wishes before everyone else. Think about us being brought up to say 'X and I did whatever' but now it is 'me and X did whatever'. I think that explains quite a lot although I am luckier with my dils that doesn't mean I don't understand those less fortunate.

Exactly! The things they suspect and accuse others of shows that they think their behaviour and ways of thinking is the norm not the exception!

"Think about us being brought up to say 'X and I did whatever' but now it is 'me and X did whatever'."

Um, my DD was taught to say "X and I..." The "me and X" some young people say is still bad grammar, as far as I know, not some kind of "new grammar." And I knew some people in our generation who said "me and X," whenever they weren't in class. I hardly think it's a sign of narcissism.

Starlady perhaps I didn't put it very well, I wasn't suggesting it was anything to do with narcissism, more a generational thing. I even heard a newsreader on R4 say it two days ago! I haven't ever heard anyone of my generation say it.

My DC were also brought up with good grammar but in this instance it was about putting others first. No, I don't think it is 'new grammar', I think it is a new attitude. I think the way 'myself' is used now is 'new grammar'.

Isn’t it funny how each generation thinks the one that follows it is lazy, self absorbed, disrespectful and has it so much easier than they did.

And the next generation seems to think the previous one is stubborn, disrespectful, out of touch and judgmental.

We both put labels on each other, including narcissist.

I imagine that 3 generations ago this was the conversation around the table while sipping after dinner cocktails about their children and grandchildren.

Just as I imagine that 3 generations from now there will be the same conversations about their parents and grandparents.

Oddly, it gives me peace knowing this.

Perhaps b/c it puts things in a certain perspective, GoodMama...

GM I'm sorry but I really don't see it as that clear cut. Our parents complained about some things but I don't know any who complained about their AC, some were however more supportive than others. I worked hard in a way I don't think anyone would today to make it work with Mil and Fil and it wasn't easy.

I have never put a nasty label on my dils and never would and I would be very surprised if they did about me. Perhaps the difference is that they both come from strong families who believe in family life? My local dil whose parents are a long way away sees me as a close second mum. The other one just as Nonnie and a good place to go for a holiday. Surely there are a lot more people like us than the nasty people referred to?

I think there's more nice people than there are nasty, but no one posts asking for advice on how to deal with nice people.

Nonnie, somehow, I just saw your reply to me. Thank you for clarifying!

March, I think that's it. We hear more about the nasty ILs in forums like this b/c that's who people vent or ask advice about. We have to be careful, IMO, not to start thinking that all IL relationships are like this. Then again, I think we can take away some good ideas about how to keep our parent/AC and PIL/CIL relationships working well.

Meeyoo in other words she likes undermining the authority of the parents?
I don't think she meant that, just getting enjoyment from things the grandchildren will enjoy.
She's a very nice person, with a large family who treat her as a bit of an eccentric, as I said, and I expect they tolerate a bit of annoyance because it's outweighed by her good qualities.

Nonnie, I just wrote a brilliant and thoughtful reply to you only to lose it! ;) So I will have to wing it...

I agree with you there are always exceptions. We are human after all.

I want to mention that I do believe in mental health and a narcissism diagnosis. (Didn't want you thinking I stick my head in the sand and live in a world of puppy dogs and rainbows ;) )

However, I don't believe there is an epidemic of narcissism with either the current parent generation or the current grandparent generation, despite what both will claim.

I think there is a natural conflict between generations, those who have "been there and done that" and want to share their experience and believe that those who follow behind them should listen to their point of view. And those who want to chart their own course, have their own interpretation of their up bringing and are willing to make their own mistakes as they do so.

Neither is wrong. Often times conflicts arise between these generations due to "mis-matched expectations" and poor communication. I am certainly guilty of both of these in my life. All I can do is learn from my mistakes and do my best not to repeat them.

However, I think there is a new dynamic at play in the current Adult Child/Grandparent relationship that other PP have wisely pointed out.

That is the internet and all that comes with it. Instant communication, social media, access to blogs, boards and support sites.

I think these things can all fuel the fire and create tension and issues where there didn't use to be.

If you would allow me to explain:

Instant communication - we all know these days when you call or text t someone they are almost always alerted immediately. After all, don't we (almost all of us) have phone in our hands or on our person at all times? So, when calls are not picked up or text messages are not immediately returned feelings get hurt. Just like we get irritated when people call us often when we believe they know we are busy (working, dinner time, kids bath time, etc).

Social media - Never before have we had such an intimate peak into the lives of other people. There are wonderful things about social media. Being able to connect and stay connected with friends and family is the biggest I can think of. But it's ripe for hurt feelings and miscommunication. Parents get upset when grandparents share or over share info/pics about their children. Grandparents get upset to see activities they were not invited too, or the "other" grandparents getting time they didn't. These were not issues before the web.

Blogs and support boards - We see it all the time, on both grandparent support boards and parent support boards .... the echo chamber. Support is wonderful, please don't get be wrong. But I often feel on these boards that people post one sided stories looking to vent and commiserate with one another. Rarely is actual constructive and helpful advice given, more times than not its fueling the OPs fire and then a story about their own experience of how they too can relate. While comforting, I doubt this helps the OP make the changes they need to to fix the problem (the problem, of course, not always the OP. But the only person the OP can control is themself, so thats where the change needs to be).

These are echo chambers, fueling the fire and inevitably the "narcissist" label gets thrown out, everyone agrees there is nothing to be done about the unreasonable person and moves on to the next thread. But the poor OP is left without help. I feel like in generations past, to your point, grandparents most certainly complained about their AC. But, they didn't do it to a message board will of like minded strangers. They (I'm sure carefully) complained to their family and close friends, whom no doubt also had a relationship with their AC and could offer constructive support or guidance to help the OP. I imagine many situations were defused this way, as opposed to today where the anonymity of the internet and access of like minded, equally hurt and wounded souls just fuels their fire.

(Again, this happens on both MIL/Grandparent and DIL/Adult Child boards). There is one board out there that I've seen that really holds the OP accountable for their own role in the issue and encourages communication. It's a tough love board for Adult Children dealing with MIL/Grandparent issues - it can be rough, but they really help.

Phew! So, I suppose what I'm saying is that I do believe it's generally a generational issue. But there are exceptions for true narcissism, though rare. But overall, I think we are human and people felt the way we feel now in previous generations and will feel the way we feel now in future generations. It just seems worse at times due to our changing world. But people don't change, IMO.

I started on gransnet looking for help and advice for a totally bewildering situation I found myself in.
After 2 years of d and family living with us whilst they converted one of our barns they moved out in January. I took the eldest go to school each day and following an invitation from the head to watch his class play rehearsal found myself in a situation of no further contact.
I then saw the narcissist video on this thread.
Wow. It all made a little bit of sense.
I then started to understand so much of what had happened over the past year. The more I researched the more I understood.
I now realise that I have been a victim of gaslighting and manipulation.
I got so depressed at the end of November I seriously considered suicide. I was working so hard trying to do the right thing, helping with childcare and doing all the usual home chores whilst working on the farm I couldn’t see what was happening.
I can now see I was given the silent treatment and belittled whenever I didn’t do enough in her eyes.
Remembering incidents in the past little things that didn’t make much sense at the time but I thought it must just be me.
I now realise I have never ever had an apology from her. For anything. Everything was turned to be my fault.
I now understand why her husband says yes to everything she demands. £13000 for a week in the Maldives, everything in the barn conversion has had to be new, even though we stored their furniture. His reluctance to ever get her up to have the kids in the morning.
He has experienced her tactics in the past. She left him for a while after they had been married for a couple of years because she found him boring.
She is a surgeon.
I realise I’ve gone on rather.
I wanted to say that she isn’t diagnosed and never will be as she would never allow it to happen.
But I recognise all the traits and I’ve been her victim.
They chose to live with us. They could have moved out at any time
she used us. And when she had taken all she could discarded us.

She is a surgeon
You probably know this one but I'll put it out there anyway....
Q-What's the difference between God and a surgeon
A-God doesn't think he's a surgeon

(I'm so sorry for what you've been through Deb, I didn't post that joke to make light of it)

There is a big different between a a Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and having narcissistic traits. NPD is rare of course, but it does seem that many millennials (including my own adult children) have narcissistic traits. As a Psychologist, I have spent a lot of time considering this. The conclusion I’ve come to is that it does result from their up-bringing insofar as, in the 1970s and before, children’s wishes tended to come secondary to those of the parents. From approximately the 1980s, children were mostly placed on pedestals. Our little Prince’s and Princesses grew up to feel that they are as wonderful and special as we told them they were. Of course we didn’t appreciate that they would become most affronted when the pedestal wasn’t there for them any longer. I have seen my own children’s narcissistic traits in relation to friends, boyfriends etc, but at that time, I still saw them as my wonderful, perfect children. As adults, they turned it on me. I have one out of three who does not have narcissistic traits. Nature plays a part, some genotypes will be more likely to develop that way than others, and to be fair, my oldest was born in the mid ‘70s and was not as ‘spoilt’ in the early years when I was very young, and parenting advice was different. At least we expected our children to be polite, behave reasonably in public and have half decent table manners, looking at the way so many children behave in restaurants now, it seems the pedestals have got taller. Our children won’t be the last generation where narcissistic traits are common.

Stella thanks for that, I think it makes sense and it probably accounts for the one I know.

Deb sorry to hear that and I do understand it very well because you have described the person I know so well. I am very lucky that it is not one of my dils.

GoodM sorry but I feel I have to discuss some of what you say while agreeing with much of it.

"I think there is a natural conflict between generations, those who have "been there and done that" and want to share their experience and believe that those who follow behind them should listen to their point of view". I don't think this applies to me or those I know. We only share our experience when asked for it.

"So, when calls are not picked up or text messages are not immediately returned feelings get hurt. Just like we get irritated when people call us often when we believe they know we are busy (working, dinner time, kids bath time, etc)." Sorry but again I simply don't get this. My feelings are not hurt when I don't get an instant reply, why would they be? I never call mine unless I need an urgent response so this simply doesn't happen. If I called they would pick up straight away because they would know it matters. It is obvious to me that they lead very busy lives so we leave it to them to contact us and they do.

Why would anyone share anything intimate on SM? I doubt anyone I know would identify me from my posts here. I choose my Facebook friends but only post things of general interest, family stuff we share on WhatsApp.

Yes, I think any discussion about GC is best done in person. My dil's mother and I do discuss our GC and of course agree that they are better than anyone else's but we also discuss how different things are today to when it was us but we would never share these discussions with our AC! Indeed we come from different countries so there are probably more differences than for others.

In summary I think that if each one shows empathy most of these things can be dealt with in a reasonable way but, if one person is determined to 'be right in all circumstances' or look for trouble there is no way to deal with it.

You are reasonable yet again Nonnie, like I said previously, I think you are most likely a wonderful Mom, MIL and grandmother. I doubt any of this applies to you

Awesome post, GM!

The comments about pictures and social media especially caught my attention. You're right, these are new issues, and for that reason, I think we all have to realize that we are all still learning. So, IMO, parents need to be tolerant if a GP shares a photo the parents would prefer they didn't, and GPs have to grin and bear it if they see pix on the young parents' pages of events they (the GPs) weren't invited to. Most likely, the GP was just proudly showing off their GC the way they would have years ago if they were given some wallet photos. And, most likely the parents were just sharing the joys of a special day and didn't mean to hurt the GPs.

Granted, if the GP continues to share GC photos after being asked not to, that's a problem. And it's no different than doing anything else w/ their GC that the parents asked them not to do. Even though the Internet is still fairly new, IMO, a GP should realize that repeating this will cause trouble.

I'm not so sure what I think about the social media issue. Surey, most of us have been taught not to talk about a party in front of those who were not invited. And posting pix of it if the uninvited party can see them is about the same thing. But it's very common for people to post pix of fun events in their lives, etc.

IMO, this is a harder problem to solve than that of GP sharing photos. Should the parents stop posting pix of events where the GPs weren't included? Should they only avoid posting pix where one set of GPs were included but not the other? Should they block the excluded GPs altogether? Should they take time to limit certain pix to certain viewers (I know this can be done on FB, not sure about other sites)? If GPs are excluded a lot, should they just avoid looking at their AC's/CIL's photos? IDK, but it definitely is a new issue that can cause tensions.

Thank you Starlady.

Truth be told, social media is not my favorite. I have found it to cause a lot more hurt feelings than good feelings. So I pretty much avoid it!

But I am aware these are the times and it’s not going away.
Hopefully we’ll all figure it out together.

Nonnie, you sound like a great mum, MIL, GM, etc! And it sounds as if you come from a wonderful family! I think my family is pretty great, too, overall, LOL! However, I remember parents, years ago, who were openly upset w/ their AC's choices, whether of spouse, lifestyle, or parenting methods, or all three. My own MIL clearly tried to change the way DH and I did some things w/ our kids. And she would use any strategy she could think of to do it - lecture, personal stories (there I didn't mind so much), ridicule (the most offensive, IMO), etc.

Also, I know people who get very upset when someone doesn't text back immediately, especially their AC. Ive seen it on sites like this and in real life. Their assumption is that people "always" have their phones w/ them, and "always" check them when they ring/beep/whatever. And their feeling is that "it only takes a minute" to give a reply, even if it's a brief, "TTYL" ("talk to you later"). Their complaint is they're sure their AC reply right away if it's "one of their friends or their spouse/SO." So they assume that the lack of an immediate reply to them must mean they are a low priority for their AC. The fact that their AC might be busy w/ their kids or in a work meeting, etc., doesn't cross their minds. And so, their feelings are hurt. Fortunately, you and I aren't like that, but some people are.

Actually, I admit, Ive noticed that DD will almost always answer texts from SIL immediately. Not so much when I text her, LOL! So even I can see where it looks as if there's a priority thing involved. But hey, SIL SHOULD be her priority, IMO. It's normal and healthy, I think, for me not to be so high on the list anymore.

Thanks for the compliments but I really wasn't 'blowing my own trumpet' I was just stating it as it is and as my friends see it too.

Another couple of examples: we were at a party yesterday at the home of some GPs, their ACs were there and so were some of the adult GCs. They all help each other out in lots of ways and no one tells anyone what to do. They have had some issues in the family (haven't we all?) but they have worked together and been empathetic. My friend is still friends with her son's divorced wife.

Another friend who is the mother of an only child, an AD, so may possibly be likely to be controlling, isn't. She has a toddler gd who is being brought up very differently, very strict food regime, non-gender specific and in many ways rather over the top. She fits in entirely with the way her AD brings up the child but does sometimes talk about it to me and we simply accept that it is different.

All around me I see people accommodating their family's views. I don't recognise these awful controlling GPs, sorry. Of course I am sure there are a few but I think it uncommon.

I totally agree with you Nonnie. I’ve many friends who are grandparents, we all discuss things together and accept that many things are different for each generation. We talk but don’t involve ac.
I’m sure this is how it’s always been.
I find it very difficult to understand why my ad chose to convert one of our barns, live with us for 2 years if we were interfering gps.
But we still have been on the receiving end of awful narcissistic behaviour.

You're welcome, GM and Nonnie.

Yes, Nonnie, I agree. Most GPs I know are wise enough not to interfere in their AC's & CIL's parenting methods even if they don't agree w/ them. They may share their concerns w/ other GPs (their friends), but they don't butt in. As said earlier, these kinds of forums tend to focus on the parent/GP or PIL/CIL relationships that are problematic.