Child arrangement court order

I just dont understand why it is not of interest to both sides to discuss the realities of court ordered contact in practice?

Why isnt that of interest to both sides?

And why do some of those who DO support GPs going to court want to perpetuate myths about the process (such as that if court contact is granted, it will be flexible and negotiable and wont bind the child to going when they need to be at home for various "life happening" reasons etc)

Why is stating how awful court ordered contact is so contentous?

Court orders are awful doesnt = estrangement is awesome + down with nans!!

It would be easier to believe that some posters have the GC in mind rather than point scoring if they showed any interest in what court orders really mean!

It feels like this:

"Why wont you acknowledge that not all GPs cause the estrangement.."
"Okay sure, say 50% are not to blame, in which case..."
"STOP MAKING UP STATISTICS"
"ummm I was only trying to agree with you and say that the origional causes of estrangements are varied..."
"YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT 50% YOU SAID"
"um no, not what I said"
"You dont want a "discussion""
"Wait, what?"

*And why do some of those who DO support GPs going to court want to perpetuate myths about the process (such as that if court contact is granted, it will be flexible and negotiable and wont bind the child to going when they need to be at home for various "life happening" reasons etc)

Why is stating how awful court ordered contact is so contentious?*

To the first part, the answer is obviously that they will be the reasonable ones who allow all of these things to happen.

To the second, Because that doesn’t go along with the narrative that they are the only reasonable kind people the child has in their lives.

I am too susceptible to people telling mewht I am thinking, saying or feeling. I end up believing I am in the wrong but, I can't see anyone against court ordered contact being so for the wrong reasons.

summerlove

Court contact is court ordered

Being "reasonable" doesnt come into it

What on earth do you imagine court ordered contact is?

The court assigns when, where, who, how, how long...

It is not a rap an the knuckles and an order to "play nice"

It is contact centres. Or fixed dates and times. Court orders are beyond being "reasonable" and discussing when suits the child best.

If life happens the only way to change the court order is to go back to court!

It cannot be agreed to cut back during exam time, or the childs first period, or first term of a new school etc.

Disobaying the court ordered visit can = jail time!

Notanan2, you are correct, it is of interest for both parties to have a discussion about the realities of court ordered contact in practice. But the thread has descended into the usual back and forth about who is responsible for the estrangement, despite your many attempts to bring it back to this point. None of your questions or points were ever answered or acknowledged.

I can only assume therefore that the other contributors are not too concerned about the realities of court ordered contact in practice and the effects on the child. And that further leads me to believe that maybe it is only truly about their own needs and wants.

Razzmatazz, I too try to avoid agreeing with other posters as I don’t want to fall into the “us and them” mentality that is so prevalent on the estrangement threads.

I, as a grandparent, cannot agree with using the courts as a way to exert control over your adult children and their own family, no matter how other posters try to dress it up.

I have noticed that you need to be careful about what you say and how you say it, as there are posters who will come at you in an aggressive and over the top manner. Which is a shame, really, as that just shuts down the discussion. Which I am now thinking might be the point!

Notanan, you completely missed my sarcasm

Should have used the sarcasm font lol

razz, I thought I had.

It obviously failed along with the holding ??‍♀️

Haha, that’s given me a laugh!

I’d love a sarcasm font!

Glad to be of service GG65

I did wonder

Thank you namsnanny and nonnie.

We are fast approaching 7 years of estrangement from our son and only GC. We are fortunate in that we never established a relationship with the eldest, as we weren't allowed too, last saw him when he was 8 months old and have never seen the youngest.

They are also fortunate that they didn't have a relationship with us so us not being a part of their lives is not something they will miss, because we never were.

There are however GC who have spent a lot of time with GP's and then don't get to see them again; what about those children?

For those of you who see only the selfishness of GP's who do decide to go to court, and their desire to 'win' at all costs, what about those children's parents?

This isn't about who is right or wrong when it comes to the cause of the estrangement, it's about what's right for the children.

It makes no sense when GP's who helped with child care, had their GC for sleep overs and days out are suddenly considered unsuitable to have contact. This is the reality for many estranged GP's, not ours thank God, but it is for many.

So when those of you do so, talk of the 'damage' to the GC of GP's who do decide to go to court, consider the damage that has already been done to those children whose GP's, who they know and love, simply disappear from their lives.

The AC of non abusive parents, who are their children's GP's are the ones who are responsible. It was said some time ago on this thread by Starlady I think, that this is not a level playing field and it isn't.

Yes, parents have the power to deny their children their GP's and some do, not because it's right, not because it's fair and not because it's justified, but because they can.

Smile, how are the courts supposed to decide who were good grandparents and who weren't? Who would be good grandparents and who wouldn't? Who out of the parents or AC are in the right or wrong?

I mean explain to me how this process could work so that all children are protected from abusive people. Explain to me how regular contact would work without the children missing out on other things going on in their lives. Explain to me how it would work if the children don't want to go and are forced to. Explain to me how this could happen without causing stress to the parents which impacts the children. Explain to me how parents raising small children afford legal representation without their children going without. Explain to me why courts and the safeguarding organisation they work with aren't awarding grandparents rights already if it is the right choice. Explain all that to me and I will campaign with you.

So when those of you do so, talk of the 'damage' to the GC of GP's who do decide to go to court, consider the damage that has already been done to those children

We have!
Court doesnt undo that damage. It just adds new damage on top!

The previous contact that GP's had with their GC would be a good starting point Razzmatazz. When GP's have had their GC without the parents being present in the past, it's unlikely that that would have happened if the parents seriously believed their children would be at risk.

It follows therefore, that up until some point those GP's were considered to be good GP's. If there were a particular incident or series of incidents that came to light showing that the GP's were not fit to see their GC, that would initially be raised by the parents when the GP's initially seek permission to go to court, and most likely if it's true and can be substantiated, prevent the case going ahead.

Children can miss out of other things going on in their lives for all sorts of reasons. When there is no estrangement, children at times may feel resentful that they have to go with mum and dad to visit GM and GD. This scenario is also the case where parents 'force' their children to visit GP's with them, because that's what the parents want.

If the EP's who know the GP's not to be a risk to their children are denying contact because they, the estranging parents don't want it, it would be hoped that they would at least have the maturity to understand the importance of an already established and loving relationship between their children and their GP's.

It would be the responsibility of the parents and GP's to keep any stress they may feel away from the children, as they do in other areas of their lives. There are many things that make parents stressful and the majority of them find ways to avoid that stress adversely affecting their children.

I cannot of course explain to you how some parents with limited means can afford representation without their children going without. We have had on GN very recently, a GM who went to court alone as she couldn't afford representation.

One possibility would be for parents to do as she did, another would be to avoid court all together by allowing at least some measure of contact between the children and their GP's.

There are GP's who have successfully managed to see their GC due to a court order, few and far between admittedly but it does happen. If it was not believed by safeguarding organisations and the courts that GP's going to court to see their GC was never the right thing to do, then GP's would never have been given permission by the courts to do so.

When you consider the damage already done to children notanan it seems to me that the responsibility for that damage is always placed on the GP's.

So Razzmatazz are you going to campaign with me?

No, that doesn't answer anything Smile, especially the most important part about how the courts are supposed to decide who is and isn't abusive and a danger to children. Of course parents try to hide stress from children, but children arent daft and will pick up on it. You haven't answered what happens if the children don't want to go and they have to because it is court ordered. I think you are living in a fantasy world where it is all sunshine and rainbows. Trust me, I have seen enough parents divorce and end up with court appointed visitation. I have dealt with the aftermath of it for the children. I have watched their education suffer. I have watched their social and emotional development suffer. Children whose parents divorce amicably do very well and bounce back within a few months. When 2 parents can't get on well enough to sort out visitation between themselves, it is generally because one was abusive. If you believed your grandchild was resident with an abusive parent, you would do the right thing and report them. I can't tell you specific stories because I would lose my job, but some of the things children tell me are horrifying. I spend a lot of time with them, they trust me.

In order for good grandparents to be allowed contact, the bad ones would get a chance. People like my mother who emotionally and physically abused me. Who had a terrible effect on my older son before I cut her off. The boy who would come home upset because his grandparents aren't like his friends grandparents. The woman who left me no evidence to prove her abuse because she was too sly and clever and has enough charisma to charm you out of the shirt on your back. The woman who would have taken me to court were they younger, she told me so in an email. Because my children are tools to make her look good and the real victim. Is that what you want?

Don't be ridiculous Razzmatazz, of course I wouldn't want you, your children or anyone else to be forced to have a relationship with someone who is abusive.

You asked me for a series of explanations which I gave you. Perhaps you didn't think I'd be able too which is why you said if I did, you'd campaign with me. You asked me to explain, not to convince you which I obviously haven't, and knew I wouldn't be able to do.

It's highly unlikely that having lost a son and my only GC due to estrangement, that I'm living in a "fantasy world where it is all sunshine and rainbows".

You on the other hand due to your abusive mother appear to be living in a world overshadowed by the pain and trauma that you've suffered. For that I am truly sorry that said, I would rather live in my 'fantasy' world as you put it, where there is sunshine and hope than yours where it appears your entire view of EP's and GP's is coloured by your own, all be it understandable, bitterness and anger.