Child arrangement court order

Frankly it doesn't really matter what we all think does it! The law allows grandparents to go to court. The court decides if their application is in the interests of the child or not, whether its "vexacious" or anything else for that matter! If GPs choose to do what they are legally allowed to do, then we have to trust the courts to do their best for the child in each individual case just as we do when they make decisions about parents and their children.

I am interested to see any data on how many such cases are found to be in the interests of the child, vexatious or other...does anyone know if any such data is available, have done a google search but got nowhere ? May be typing in the wrong question I suppose but wondered if there has been a report on this area?

I've just had a look Madgran, there's a ton of information but little statistical. The only one I found was a study done in America of just 65 cases and the success rate was 12.9%.

Well of course it is notanan. You say "they are often assessed to be thus" (vexacious) do you have anything to substantiate that claim?

Family law solicotors cite it as a common reason for cases not proceeding to court.

Dont you see that the assessment process also filters IN the type of GPs who are likely to succeed? Thus avoiding a process that costs time, money and emotion/energy all round for those unlikely to have a case.

It filters IN the GPs who have fostered the child in the past. It is a GOOD gateway

If it was "open doors" for all GPs to skip straight to court, a couple would be entitled to each take turns dragging the family through court. As it stands courts can say "enough! No! Leave the family in peace!" Which is a good thing for everyone

Its also worth bearing in mind that childrens court has a backlog of pretty heinous cases to plough through too, serious cases are delayed, so to allow extended family automatic right to take any childs family to childrens court, in the grand scheme of things, is not practical!

There needs to be a filter! It should never be automatic

Yes of course I see that it filters in GP's more likely to succeed which of course is a good thing.

As Madgran posted earlier, whether we agree with GP's going to court for access or not, we have to trust the courts and that must include their judgement as to whether or not some GP's should be given permission to go to court for contact.

Notanan Ah I misunderstood your original comment about vexatious, you were saying that they were assessed before being allowed to go to court atall ..my fault, misread it.

So the systems are in place so that once it goes to court less than genuine applications are filtered out

Smileless thanks - I also saw the ton of information, but little statistical. It seems surprising that no report on this area exists but maybe as I said, I am typing in the wrong question.

Notanan Is there a report re family law solicitors decisions re going to court do you know? It would be interesting to read about the process

That could make 2 of us Madgran but other than typing in 'statistical information regarding successful applications by grand parents for contact with grand children' I didn't know what else to ask.

Not that I know of, it would be very difficult to accurately count because there just WONT be numbers for the ones who enquire with solicitors & are told "no chance"

Some solicitors will take on anyone
Others will only take on ones with good cases.

The numbers would be hard to properly interpret if you wanted to include all that tried to go the court route as many will get turned away at the enquiry stage!

Some solicitors cite great success rates: Im assuming that their enquiry Vs actually represented rates are huge

Whereas others cite the odds as lower but they may take in more enquiries as clients IYKWIM

I couldn't find the statistics, but I did find a few articles that backed up pretty much every point Notanan made. Courts sadly don't always get it right, my friend has 3 children who witnessed their mother horrifically abused by their father. He was awarded every other weekend by the courts. One by one his children stopped contact with him as they grew. I personally witnessed her be very careful to try and bolster them and be positive about their father knowing she couldn't stop it and hoping they would have a positive ecperience. Saying that though, it was 15 years ago now and we all know the improvements made in children's law and safeguarding after some of the truly awful things that were missed regarding children. This is why schools, hospitals, and other organisations are very connected now.

“trusted to do what the parent demanded with the children.”

This starts off with a negative connotation towards the parents from the beginning.

Re: heritage, I have already mentioned, the child’s parent is the one responsible for teaching them their heritage. A child will not be cut off from Heritage if they have access to their parent. Now, should they not have access to their parent then when they are 18 or whenever they are legally an adult in their jurisdiction, they have the right to go searching for their heritage. Not dissimilar to an adopted child.

Razz yes you are right courts dont always get it right. There was a case in the paper not long ago. But presumably we dont hear about all the ones that are got right for the children

I literally after I finished typing watched a story of a girl who was pulled out of school age 9 amd was not seen or heard from again until she was found age 19 screaming in her back garden by neighbours. We live in a terrible world sometimes.

Yes we do. We have a friend living abroad going through a terrible divorce. He is a bully, emotionally, financially and at sometimes a physical abuser.

We've known him for more than 30 years, since he was a little boy and cannot believe what he's become. They've been given joint custody and he tries to get the eldest child to spy on his mother, to lie to her and keep secrets.

There's been more than one occasion where she's had to borrow money just to feed her children.

Smile, remember that people like him become grandparents. And sometimes like my unfortunate case, their children don't realise the truth about them till later in life. Even when we do have a good parent to compare them to. My need for my mothers love was overwhelming... Still is at times

Smileless, it’s awful, isn’t it. I have a friend who’s husband (ex, now) was the exact same. That’s how he was with their children during their divorce - made them spy on her, lie to her etc. He eventually turned the children against her and she lost them both, for years. She is only now starting to rebuild her relationship with them. It absolutely broke her.

Razz, absolutely. My mother in law was a daughter in law once, and I feel so bad for my father in law’s mother. My husband has little to no memories of the woman. He does, however, remember his mother telling him, as a child, that his grandmother preferred her other grandchildren over him, that she wasn’t interested in him etc. He had no real relationship with her - wasn’t permitted to.

The need for a mother’s love is so primal, and I can see it in my husband, at times. It’s really sad how life works out.

"We live in a terrible world sometimes."

Yes, unfortunately, sometimes we do. It's horrific what some parents do to their kids b/c of anger at their ex-spouse. And, true, IMO, the courts don't always get it right.

By the same token, I'm sure they don't always get it right where GPs are concerned. Then again, there are probably some GPs as cruel and spiteful as some of the parents we just heard about. I don't think COs are always the GPs' "fault," anymore than they are always the parents "fault."

And I get the GPs who don't want to take time away from their DS' time w/ his children if he's divorced and the non-custodial parent (same for DD if she's the non-custodial parent). But if, say, DS gets every other weekend w/ his kids, I can't see why he can't share one afternoon, maybe, w/ his parents, even if it's just once a month or once every other month. I can't help but feel that expecting the custodial parent to arrange these visits is just part of the tendency to blame her (or him if XSIL is the custodial parent) for things and act as if one's own AC need bear no responsibility for anything. I could be wrong, and it might not be true of everyone in this situation. It's just a feeling I get.

Also, as Ive said before, I don't fully understand tearing a child away from a GP they have a close relationship with. But sometimes, I know, such a GP has a hard time letting go when the relationship begins to change - the kid doesn't need a childminder anymore, has increased outside activities, becomes more interested in peers and less in GPs, or the parents are ready to take on more childcare themselves, etc. for whatever reason. Or the GP, if they've helped raise the child (I know no one said that) has difficulty stepping back and accepting it if they're no longer in that role, keeps trying to have a say in childrearing, tries to undermine the parents, etc. (NOT saying this is true of anyone her, but Ive seen it in real life.) Then, I can see the parents might feel the need to pull further away from that GP. I just think they should try to do it w/o a complete CO. And if the child misses the GP, I'm not sure that any explanation from the parents, no matter how gentle, will suffice.

I do understand because I was alienated from family members, including my grandparents . My mother had awful stories to tell about all of them and went years at a time without speaking to them. They took her side when I finally gave up which baffled me. After years of her seeming to me to have a difficult relationship with them. My therapist said that, people like my mother learn over time that they will end up alone for the way they use and abuse people. Generally they learn this around the age people generally have children. So they focus it all on one child instead. Condition that child to believe they deserve it. Compare that child unfavourably to others. Complain and lie about that child to anyone who will listen so that others won't be available to support the child and take them seriously. Concentrating all their abuse on one person allows them to maintain good fake relationships with others. So even though I knew what my mother really thought of her family, they did not. They got years of a woman who had seemingly grown up and matured into a better person. There is a possibility without me that she has gone backwards without her punch bag. She slipped up where my cousin could see and my cousin has asked me about it. She is desperate for attention by the looks of things. I am keeping my cousin at arms length though as I don't know if I have it in me to be open to a relationship after all this time. After being frowned upon as a bad child. Id also rather my mother doesn't slip up again rather than her hurt anyone else.

It just made me think of another aspect here. My father had court awarded visitation for me. Every other weekend and every other Christmas. She hated it and guess who she took it out on? She made my life utter hell before and after a visit to him.

That's so sad, Razz. Hugs!

Madgran77 Wed 28-Aug-19 16:51:51 another reasonable post

Summerlove Wed 28-Aug-19 18:33:54 what I said was exactly the case or I would not have said it. I know GPs who have been told exactly what to do with the children, where to take them, what to buy them and even which hotel to stay in.

It seems no one is prepared to accept that a child with only one parent should be allowed to know one side of its family. I remember some years back this issue being so important that a white family were not allowed to adopt a black child. Surely it is even more important if a mixed race child has known one side of its family and is then denied access to them for no child related reason? Waiting until they are 18 means they lose all the love, care and culture of one side of their family. How on earth can anyone think that is fair on a child?

It is this aspect of my post which has not been answered or should I say not been understood?

A chilling thought Razz. The children continue to witness his verbal abuse and intimidation of their mother and who knows, if he carries on, when they're old enough to decide for themselves, they may choose to go no contact and he'll never know if he does become a GF, let alone ever get the chance to see his GC.

That's terrible GG . Thankfully in this case the eldest tells mum what's going on so he appears to be very uncomfortable with what his father's doing.

I don't disagree nonnie that a child with only parent should be allowed to know one side of their family, that makes sense. It also makes sense IMO that where ever possible, children with two parents should know both sides of their family.

Children with 2 parents DO know both sides of their family!

I've seen it addressed several times. People can and do adopt or Foster children from different cultures. One parent will be from that culture. Different cultures are often taught and celebrated in schools and extended family will not be the only people in a child's life from that culture. Failing all that, there is a wide breadth of knowledge available on the Internet.