Child arrangement court order

For example, grandchild has a birthday party but it is also time for court ordered visit to grandparents- what to do?

Gc practices a sport and cannot go to a competition/practice/game as it is time to visit the grandparents - what to do?

The gc loses, big time.

If the GPs do not communicate with or respect the childs primary carers, what happens about continuity of routine, discipline, diet, health needs, emotional needs?

Well I know what happens from kids I have seen under court ordered contact: no continuity and the child becomes unsettled/ill/destructive etc

One example = not believing the parents re allergies as symptoms dont show until child is returned home. So A. a sick child after every contact and NOTHING the parent can do and B. the parents efforts to teach the child to avoid thosr foods are undermined

Another example: child given an ipad at contact. No discussion with primary parent about what internet safety education or boundaries the child has at home. Child saw some REALLY traumatic content spliced into youtube cartoons. Child went home having nightmares and repeating inappropriate content at school..
..... because there was no relationship between the parent and the relatives who had the contact order there was no co-operation re dealing with this, and the relatives claimed that the parent had made it all up to try to "control" what gifts they gave to the child.

The child is colateral damage. It is NOT good for the child to have stayed with people who cannot or will not co-operate with the childs primary carers.

It is unsettling and upsetting for the child.

Court appointed contact is NOTHING like a "normal" visit to relatives!

Hand over is either facilitated by contact centre, a third party, or between the people who dont get on.

Do you seriously think that the tension caused by these "handovers" are not picked up upon by the child.

The child is not a prize. A drama / tension / stressfree stable life without seeing much of a particular member of the extended family is preferable FOR THE CHILD than having "contact" at any cost (to the child and their immediate family unit: financial/mental/emotional/logistical restrictions etc)

You cause stress and restrictiins and cost to a childs primary family unit, that affects the child!

100% agreement, notanan2

There was a child in one of my childrens class who people stopped inviting to parties because even when the child wanted to go, the weekend contact person did not want to "waste" their contact by dropping them at class parties for 2 hours! The mum was sad about it and the kid was often gutted but nothing the mum could do, she could be penalised for holding the child back from contact for parties.

No GP who does this gives a toss about their GCs. They just want to "win"

Also as contact is often at weekends, kids get bundled back on sundays, tired/disrupted/unsettled/out of routine and they then struggle at school on the monday.

Being shoved back n forth between adults that dont work together, with all the tension stress and resentment that the court order causes, has an awful effect on the child that any teacher will tell you has a massive knock on effect.

Often, the damage of contact sessions is only begining to be undone in time for another contact session..

Often the person with the contact order expects their contact session to be all about fun. They want to be good cop. So homework etc doesnt get done. And they do not want to be told about what needs to be done by the primary carer if the relationship between them is hostile.

Notanan2,
100% agree

Notanan, those poor poor kids.

Some very extreme examples of unfit GP's in the recent posts on here, and I mean extreme.

Gun toting relatives, car chases, GP's disregarding information regarding allergies the result which could be very serious for the GC, insensitive GP's denying their GC a much looked forward too party, allowing the GC's schooling to suffer by not ensuring homework is done and if that's not all bad enough, the GC are finally "bundled back on Sundays, tired/disrupted/unsettled/out of routine and then they struggle at school on the Monday".

Well of course there are extreme cases but what about the GP's who just want to see their GC, be able to give them a gift on their birthday's and at Christmas, to see them take part in school plays and on sports day?

The majority of GP's who of course managed to raise their own children know how to do the right thing as should their parents. For example, the GC has a party to attend during the time they're due to be with their GP's. Is it beyond the wit of man to re arrange that time so the GC can go to the party and not miss out on seeing the GP's.

Are we really expected to believe that the aforementioned examples are how the majority of GP's behave? If they do then no, they shouldn't be around their GC, certainly not unsupervised but it seems to suit some to see nothing but good in the parents denying their children GP's and only bad in the GP's who miss them.

What of the GC who grew to know and love their GP's, who spent time with them and suddenly find that they're no where to be seen. As you posted Summerlove, "those poor poor kids".

My examples are not extreme or unusual smileless. That is what happens when someone who does not communicate with the childs primary carer gets contact.

If the relationship is so bad that the GPs have inflicted the court process on the family, do you seriously think there is an amiable chat at handover about the childs needs and routines?

There isn't.

Oncw the visit is court ordered it is NOTHING AT ALL like a normal visit, the primary carer who knows the child best gets no say!

E.g. my child has big exams in her hobby (which she hopes to turn into a career) coming up. I will not arrange a family visit the weekend before. As her parent I will keep that weekend free to make sure she is well relaxed and prepared for her exam week

If we were under court order I could face serious consequences for doing so and saying no to her being bundled off that weekend!

The GPs who persue court by default do not value or respect the parents as primary carers. So yes, they almost all disregard the parents "handover" instructions about the childs need during "their" contact time.

Again, as I said, as any teacher how court appointed contact affects children. It is NOTHING AT ALL like normal family visits.

The GPs who persue court also do not care about the affect on the child of having put their primary carers/immediate family through the expense and stress of a court process.

There's no need to shout notanan and IMO the examples cited are extreme. As for not caring about the children in these tragic cases, there is no care from the P's who deny their children loving, caring and non abusive GP's out of sheer spite, and there are many of those I can assure you.

Once again an example of an overriding need and desire to tar all estranged P's and GP's with the same abusive and uncaring brush.

Its about benefit Vs risk

The damage done to the child by the court process and visits being court directed outweighs the benefits if the contact once it gets to extended family.

Even when the court contact is with a parent and therefore much more justified, the process is traumatic for the child:

Your parent being taken to court = a high level of stress in your home

Your parent being taken to court = less money for your primary carer who is raising you

Contact appointed contact = regular tense rigid handovers (even if they are via contact centre or 3rd party) and the child picks up on the tension

Court appointed contact = rigid & inflexible, cannot be adjusted around family life or the child

Court appointed contact = by default, someone who does not communicate with the child having charge of them. The negative consequenses of this are many: lack of continuity, consistancy, health & wellbeing issues

Court appointed contact = a child that "acts up" and has to be "decompressed" after the process each time. For all of the above reasons. Teachers will tell you about mondays after contact weekends

Court appointed contact is court appointed contact. It will NEVER feel to the child like a normal, relaxed family visit

Once again an example of an overriding need and desire to tar all estranged P's and GP's with the same abusive and uncaring brush.

I am talking about how court directed contact affects the child. There is a child who ends up being "delivered" like a Yelp package once there is a court order in place. It is not about an adult "wining" contact! Not to me anyway!

The childrens courts are not concerned with the needs of adults. They are concerned about the needs of the child. And rightly so. May it remain thus.

Coury directef cobtact is traumatic. That trauma may be justified for contact with a parent or sibling. But extended family must consider that it is a traumatic restrictive process. And court ordered contact will never recreate a normal family visit

You may want to continue to believe that court orders rarely have a massive negative knock on effect on the child, but I never said take just my word on it, ask anyone who works with children where there are contact centres/ court orders involved!

Even if the process fails. The process has a knock on effect that harms the child.

Being taken to court will affect the primary carers well being, mental health and finances. You cant harm a childs primary carer/resident parent without harming the child. Children pick up on things going on in their home. Some GPs think the childs primary carer and the child are separate unrelated entities. They think their dispute with the parents wont affect the child that is in their home/primary care. Those GPs cannot care as much about the GCs as they do about "winning" their dispute with the primary carer.

The best interests of the child have to come first - above anything else, including, sadly, the wishes of grandparents. This does mean that some GPs will miss out, and that is very sad, but their needs have to be secondary to the child's.

Contact visits are often fraught affairs and only work well when the parties to the arrangement are communicating amicably. If a court order has been necessary to compulsorily order contact, then the amicable communication is unlikely to be present.

It is very sad indeed when parents disallow contact with GPs, but we have to face the unpalatable fact that forcing contact via legal proceedings is very unlikely to result in the best interests of the child being met.

The denial of contact with GPs is very upsetting; but that contact is of course not an essential element of a child's life - I hardly saw either set of GPs as my parents did not get pon with them. It is the ideal when a child has wider family to love them and give them different experiences; but a court order to make that happen is likely to negate the benefits as there will be negative emotions surrounding each visit.

The whole court enforced contact with anyone - estranged birth parent or GP - is very difficult and requires restraint and tact. It is hard for children to have to go to someone's place for contact when they really just want to veg out with their mates.

Lucky girl said it better than me (and more concisely)

what about the GP's who just want to see their GC, be able to give them a gift on their birthday's and at Christmas, to see them take part in school plays and on sports day?

It’s not about them or their wants. They can want something but they may need to just get over it if it upsets the child.

I have never heard of a child who grew up and continued contact with the GP who went through court. Every story I read the child cut contact and ended the visits as soon as they were able.

Im not denying the benefits of normal visits with extended family. Lord knows Ive gone out of my way many times to visit family I could take or leave so that my children knew their roots!

But a court ordered contact will never ever be like a normal visit. It has knock on affects and the process often does quite major damage to the child!

Going to court for contact with our GC was not something we were prepared to do and I agree Luckygirl that the interests of the children have to come first, and that is the responsibility of the P's and GP's. In fact more so for the parents as the legal and primary care giver.

I've seen posts here on GN from adults who grew up not knowing their GP's and still feel angry about being denied that, for it is many, a loving and meaningful relationship.

I see posts here on GN from GP's who bite their tonges, walk on eggshells and shell out money for fear of being cut out of their AC's and GC's lives. Those are the parents and GP's I'm referring too and the selfish, controlling, mean, spiteful and manipulative parents who use their own children as pawns in their sick games are the ones who should be putting the interests of their children above their own.

There's no need for court orders if there's a spirit of co operation and the desire to do the right thing. If the AC of non abusive GC don't want to see their parents, there's no need to prevent that GP/GC relationship. We know a couple where this is the case.

The law makes it extremely difficult for unwanted GP's to see their GC which enables this abuse of GP's. Many do it not because it's right, not because it's justified but simply because they can.

At the end of the conversation, all other extreme or non-extreme issues aside:

My wife and I are the child's parents - not the GPs

We have the best interests of our child - not the GPs

If GPS want to visit my child - They will work it out with us for a solution. We are 'grown parents', we are not 'children that must obey'. Anything else, is nothing other than an assault on our parent child relationship with our child.

If the GPs assault our parental authority over our child it has nothing to do with love and compassion, it has to do with GPs don't believe we are the best decision makers for our child, and demand that we still must obey mommy and daddy, and now they are going to try and usurp authority over my family through the courts.

How mature..

Nothing extreme. No Guns or car chases.

Just GPs of great GC that haven't come to terms that their own children (us) are grown ups and capable of making grown up decisions.

GPs would have a better shot at telling me I'm an unfit parent and try to take my kids away. Go for it!

quoted before :::*As for not caring about the children in these tragic cases, there is no care from the P's who deny their children loving, caring and non abusive GP's out of sheer spite, and there are many of those I can assure you.*:::

Perhaps there are some. I believe there are also a great number of parents that are protecting their child, but not out of sheer spite..

Of course, the GPs want it to appear that way. So they can be the victim.

My parents could post days on end on forums like this about how I am such a liar, a how I need mental help, how they have been cheated from seeing their GCs because I'm selfish and a narcissist..

They even state they have "done all that they could", "don't know the reason I shut them out" and wish that I would "stop punishing them" and that "I'm harming my child by keeping her from seeing them". etc etc

I've sent them numerous emails with the exact reasons why, offered to sit a lawyer between us with a agreement doc to mediate a civil meeting (that was rejected) and spelled out clear, bullet pointed steps that we'd need to move forward. They have the audacity to say "He just won't communicate with us".

What they really mean, is: "He just won't obey us.

Stop trying to usurp authority over my family, stop trying to harm my child with selfish over-parenting of your own grown child - if you're ready to go to court, you'd better be ready to keep going to court for a very, very long time.

The 'court dream' is so short-sighted and does irreparable harm, based only on 1 thing: GPs wants. Not GC best interests.

I hope you all find the peace and happiness you deserve!

It is such an emotive issue and so sad when this sort of situation arises.

I am filled with admiration for those grandparents who are facing this situation and recognise that legal action will only cause discomfort for the child for all the reasons I outlined above. It must be so hard to stand back and put one's own needs and strongly-held desires to one side. That is true love for one's grandchild.

I will give plenty of examples what are not "extreme" but are very common

I see them everyday in this board.

One or a combination can break the trust and relationship with your AC.

1. Disregarding allergies, dietary preferences, grandparents feed the child what they want vs what the parents gave them

2. The "right of a gp to spoil" via candy, treats, toys, etc. If the parents have told you to stop, pay attention to them

3. The request of spending time with the kids without the parents.
If the parents say yes, ok. If not and a gp complains about it, it becomes suspicious why

4. Safety: cat seats is a huge one.
GP wanting to drive the gc around and the parent denies it.
GP wants to take baby to visit friends or family parents don't know/don't like
GP following out of date safety measures but insisting child is ok in their care

5. Babysitting/caring from child: if your son/dil want to take their child to a daycare instead of accepting your offer, let it go

6. Babycare: GP disregarding parents' instructions for the child as gp "already had children and knows what to do"

7. Fighting over the parents' and gc's time: GP is unhappy about the number of visits/calls/number of times gp sees the grandchild
GP unhappy about the distribution of holidays with them vs ILs - how much time maternal side gets vs paternal side
Xmas, birthdays, special occasions - gp expecting their AC and gc to "come home"
Gp being retired means you have all the time in world. Your AC is in opposite side, he/she is extremely busy

8. Gp's "advice": if it is not requested, don't say anything. It is not walking on eggshells, it is respecting the parents autonomy and chosen parameters to take care of their child

Suggesting rice cereal in the bottle so the baby sleeps the whole night, breastfeeding is not enough for the baby and needs formula, asking the mother to pump so gp can feed baby, etc is NOT going to sit well.

9. Saying " that is how I raised you and you came out ok" is not a justifiable reason for you to get away with the "misunderstandings or miscommunication"

10. GP requesting a gc - even as a joke, it is not funny.
Example: "so, when are you going to have a child?"
"When are you going to make me a grandmother"
"I am not getting any younger, I want to see my grandkids grow up"

11. As soon as babies are born, stop caring to visit your ac and concentrating 100% on the baby

13. GP not having a relationship with dil but as soon as she is pregnant, MIL wants to become close

14. Gp saying that they are ok not visiting theit ac, but all they want is to see their gc

15. Gp blaming the spouse instead of also realizing their child agrees with the wife/husband
Example: dil does not let me see my gc

16. Expectations of visits after baby is born
Yes, it is exciting. No, you won't be able to visit several times a week or spend all weekend with your ac and grandchild.

Same goes for not having an open door policy and able to pop in whenever

17. Birth is a private matter. You do not have the right to see your gc being born

18. Presents with strings attached - Example- I buy cloths for my gc but I do not see my gc wearing them.

19. Presents as weapons- I do not approve of what toys you buy for your child so I am teaching you how to do it best

20. Expecting dil to be the social secretary when she does not want to be

21. Expecting your AC and spouses to do what you did when you were the young couple and how you dealt with your ILs