*SUPPORT* for all who are living with estrangement

You must be on tender hooks waiting for news PF aka cheesy lady

The problem I have sometimes is getting off to sleep so I read sometimes just a couple of pages does the trick but other times it takes longer.

Then there's the dreams. I tend to get some really weird ones especially during the build up to Christmas.

It's good of you to keep us posted, we're all thinking about you.

Thanks Smileless. I know that I ought to feel excited but, strangely enough I don't. It brings back too much pain about the last time, the DGC that I didn't know anything about. I almost think that, in a way, it would have been better if there had been no contact at all, then I obviously would not have expected to be told. But the fact is that there was some contact, we had some telephone calls, exchanged cards, I transferred money to her for Christmas and birthday etc (as I didn't have an address to send any gifts and I was concerned that she might be struggling). She had conversations with me when she didn't tell me about her baby - now a toddler. I feel unloved and totally disrespected. Not to mention heartbroken.

She always takes, she never gives, and he is even worse. I am deeply suspicious and it was probably a mistake to start a MN thread where everyone keeps telling me that effectively I am being used and financially abused or 'rinsed', as they describe it. It's horrible. Some are very kind, of course, and are sorry for me and think that DD is in an abusive relationship and that I should just cut her off. But I can't do that, as I love her, but they have articulated my deepest fears. I had a bit of a meltdown yesterday.

I just want this baby to be born and to know that she and GDC2 are safe, so that I don't need to worry any more.

Hugs, PetitFromage!

I'm getting a general point out of your story, too (hope you don't mind). It has made me realize that even if a strained relationship is thawing out, one can't be sure all is entirely back to "normal" or that one is being/going to be included in all ways. It's a little sad, but it suggests "proceed w/ caution" or, ok, maybe "cautious optimism." (And, yes, people, I know that can be true for all parties.)

You said some lovely lovely things in your post PF. And you are always of a really generous spritit. I think sadly sometimes the more we give, the more some people take. Not sure how we fix that, except to give what people need (if we can work it out) rather than what they want?
Sorry I'm rushing around a bit today so just a quick pop in but I can't resist saying, it's good to have you around cheesy, when we're all feeling a bit crackers.

I understand PF. Do you remember that on more than one occasion I've told you how I admire your courage for embarking on this difficult journey? And this is why.

To have had even minimal contact and not have been told about the existence of your GD would be hard for anyone to try and get their head around. To be told by your D that she was pregnant and to rightly assume this was her first pregnancy, only afterwards to be told she already had a DD must have been devastating.

Some on mums net may be right but there's no way of knowing as only time will tell. The strain of worrying her motives are less than honourable, together with waiting to hear that the baby is safely delivered and both mum and GD are well, must be immense.

Of course you can't "cut her off", there are few mother's that could do that to their own child, even when it was that child who cut contact or greatly reduced contact with them.

So often the advice we give to one another is to protect our hearts but in this situation how can you? As Starlady has posted, "proceed with caution" and/or try to be cautiously optimistic.

Once that precious bundle is safely brought into the world and you know your DD is safe and well, you will be able to stop worrying about that at least.

BIG (((hugs))) for you dear friend xx

I think sadly sometimes the more we give, the more some people take. I think that is so true hugshelp

I agree and it isn't it simply wonderful that here on this thread, we receive as much as we give.

A fabulous bunch of ladies here

Dear PF, just go with the flow. Proceed with caution, yes, to protect your heart BUT enjoy the moment this baby is born and your involvement. She is including you now so let yourself be included. No one knows the true 'feelings' of your DD. Just try to compartmentalise your feelings. Enjoy but keep them in check too. Don't make your DD or GD your entire life. Whether or not anyone has family issues we should all do this. Any psychologist will tell you never to make one thing or person your only reason for living. Trust that things will go well from now on, and rejoice they are back in your life. I wonder could it be your DD did not tell you of the child she already had because she actually didn't know how to tell you? She waited till she felt secure in your new relationship to tell you? Regards wanting and accepting money, well, I don't know any parent amongst my friends who don't give their children AC money! I think most children see it as a right. It is a parents job to give and a child's job to take! in their eyes anyway lol!!! Just don't give too much at any one time. A good suggestion for a lot of parents as I am sure we all give too much. We should let them stand on their own two feet a bit. Hope all goes well and sending you my love

I've been telling myself that ahead of our trip in January to see DS in Aus. loveOC and was saying to Mr. S. 'he's old enough to stand on his own two feet; we can't keep shinning our for him, we have to learn to say no' etc.

Yes he said we do and I kept saying that to you when we were there in January; and you (that's me by the way) kept giving in.

I know! it's what we parents do. We just need to rein it in and not be quite so generous.

I was at my friend's house this afternoon and she said they had given each of their three AC with wives and GC a £1000 each, All they got was a 'oh thanks', DIL of one son never even said that!

You're right loveOc my mantra this trip to Aus. needs to be 'just say no, just say no'

Good luck w/ that, Smileless!

Meanwhile, glad you enjoy the ladies here. Me too.

Thank you everybody for your posts - as ever, I am overwhelmed by your kindness and the fact that you are prepared to take time to respond to me. Hugs, Star, Mad, Smile, and Love - you are all fabulous too! It's strange how I feel that I can open up to people I have never met in a way that I can't do to many people in real life, probably because we have shared experiences. We are 'sisters in arms' except that we don't want to be at war!

I agree that it is natural to want to help our DC, but that we should not let ourselves be taken advantage of, as ultimately our DC will not find self-reliance or self-respect and nor will they respect us. People have to earn things and, having done so, they will appreciate them all the more.

Smile, as Hugs has said, you always seem to find the right words. It is a difficult path to tread at present, so I am feeling my way. It is uncharted territory, there is no map and I sense that there may be unseen hazards and dangers further along the road.

Love, you are right that we cannot make one thing or person the sole focus of our lives, and I am way better than I was. After my bad day on Sunday, I felt so much better yesterday - today, I just feel emotionally exhausted. Thank you for understanding and not regarding me as too self-indulgent - it really helps to post rather than the feelings eating me up and impacting on people in real life, especially DH.

I have actually received some really good advice and support on MN from a number of posters, especially from those who have experienced estrangement, both as parents and DC. They can be more challenging than posters on here, but that is good I think. The overall consensus is generally the same though - to proceed cautiously, with honesty, openness and respect, don't rush it, don't expect it to be the same, but it can still be good as long as both sides act in good faith. There needs to be clarity about what went wrong, in order for it not to re-occur if parties slip back into old habits and ways of thinking. All of which seems to me to be eminently sensible but for the wild card - SIL. But for now I will try to think positive thoughts.

Wishing you all a lovely day .

(PS Still waiting.......)

It sounds as if you've found your experience on Mums Net both supportive and challenging PF.

Sometimes we avoid confronting our fears and we need others to bring them into focus so we can look them in the eye so to speak. It can enable us to see that our fears are realistic, that they're not unfounded but even then, that they don't necessarily dictate the outcome.

It's OK to be cautious in fact it's probably a good thing. Your SIL is the 'wild card', just one card in a pack but whose presence can affect they way the 'game' plays out.

Over the months since your DD resumed regular contact, told you about her pregnancy and the GD you already have, you've been repairing the foundation of your previous relationship to form perhaps a different foundation, for the one that's to come.

Your DD has experienced life without her mum, pregnancy and birth without having your support and the love that a mother has for her D.

This time she's been able to share with you all those things she didn't first time around. I can't help but think that this will have made her realise just how important it is for you to be there and so will be in the fore front of her mind if she feels in anyway pressurised to reduce or cut contact in the future.

Maybe your s.i.l. will have seen that she's been more settled, happy and relaxed with this pregnancy because she's been able to talk too and share with her mum.

Maybe he'll realise that despite his personal animosity, his wife wants and needs her family, her mum and her dad which is after all only normal and natural.

He may remain the wild card but his role will perhaps not be as strong as it was before. All you can do dear friend is wait and see but for now, keep your waiting if you can for the wonderful news that your new GD has been born and she and your DD are safe and well.

Mr. S. has been busy while I've been out this afternoon, putting together our Christmas Stag for our roof terrace to go with the Christmas tree.

It is lovely but ......... is so bright I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were visible from space

Get your sunglasses ready. Here it is

Mr. S. has just found on line a picture of the International Space station over the area we live. OMG maybe our stag is visible from outer space

Thank you Smileless, you are such a lifeline! And I think your reindeer is gorgeous! x

That's hilarious smileless - I bet your roof looks great, to Martians and earthlings alike!
Sorry ran out time today, but thinking of you all.
Waiting with you PF

Yes, I'm waiting too

hugshelp wouldn't say 'no to a visit from ET.

Managed to get most of the Xmas cards written. Always upsets me when I start but glad they're done.
Had cousins round for lunch, wine and board games and that was lovely.
Doctors and jobs for DD tomorrow and I need to recharge my all too feeble batteries, so off for a long hot soak in the bath.
Hope you're all having a good day. x

Sounds as if you've had a busy but productive day hugs, enjoy your bath

Smileless

Would I be correct in thinking that Mr. S is a major fan of Christmas?

When I was a child, we had a family routine that we always did for Christmas. It started with getting the tree. Now, we didn't just go and get the tree. We did a drive around town to see the Christmas lights, and then we always went to a specific garden center to buy the tree. The garden center was part of a rather unique shopping center with interesting shops, and the garden center itself had an AMAZING Christmas display. Life-size statues of angels and Father Christmas (not the typical Coca-Cola Santa Claus, mind, but Father Christmas dressed all in white furs), several decorated Christmas trees, and all sorts of Christmas villages set up (they also sold the pieces for the Christmas villages). Eventually, after checking out the shopping center, we would go to pick out a tree from the back. We always had a real tree, and I remember how amazing it would smell!

Then we had to decorate. We kids were allowed to put the cardboard decorations up around the house, and our parents helped put the tree up. They would get it in the tree stand, and Mum would put on the lights, the angel for the treetop, and the garlands. Then we were allowed to put on the balls and other decorations. Many of us had our own special decorations; unfortunately, a number of these were lost when we had our sewer line backup (the decorations, Halloween costumes, etc. were stored in cardboard boxes in the crawl space under the house, and the space got flooded with sewage - it was a nightmare). Thankfully, over time, we began to rebuild the collection.

Unfortunately that garden center has been closed for many years, and I don't live anywhere close to where I grew up, but Hubby and I are thinking about taking DSD to another garden center near where we live. We likely won't buy a tree from there (we use a fake tree as our cars are nowhere near large enough to accommodate a real one) but it will be nice to see it all decorated for Christmas.

That's delightful, Smileless! I'm another one who imagines Martians, etc. can see it (and enjoy it) and maybe Father Christmas, himself, LOL!

Agnurse, such heartwarming memories! Thank you for sharing them w/ us!

Hugs, looks like you've been busy. Hope you truly "recharge" in that tub!

I'm also in the process of writing/sending cards, as well as wrapping gifts, and doing a little more shopping.

Hope everyone here finds some joy and peace in this season, even if things aren't exactly the way you would like them to be.