Cut out of the estranged GPs will, dilemma!

The comment that it is always the parents who are responsible for their children's disfunctional behaviour. What a sweeping statement and so untrue.

Absolutely Sparkling. Every story is different and there are different causes and contexts to each estrangement. If we were only the sum of our upbringing then how could we ever develop and grow and learn as adults? Just as we can be influenced positively or negatively as adults by others so we might have been influenced positively or negatively by our parents as children.

Even when patterns can be found in estrangement it does not mean that there are no exceptions to those patterns.

Something that as an EP, and no doubt many EP's are all too aware of Madgran. It's our fault, even when it isn't.

I'm not a psychologist or anything like that to know what causes these things. Do parents have no responsibility how their children turn out though? I'm very sure not total responsibility but none?

I have ACs and still raising children and I feel a lot of their personality and character is influenced by me and their father before we factor in their friends and partners influence x

Yes Yennifer I believe as parents we do have some responsibility for how our children turn out, some but not all.

You are a great example of how an AC can be a better person and parent than your own mother, despite the abusive childhood you endured.

If we don't teach our children by example to be kind and considerate to others they probably wont be. If we don't teach them to share they're more likely to be selfish. If we don't teach them to treat others the way they want to be treated, they probably wont.

Even when we do all of the aforementioned together with 'cause and effect' and the importance of taking responsibility for one's own actions, sometimes they become someone we no longer recognise.

They can 'get in with the wrong crowd', mess around with alcohol, drugs or both. Commit themselves to someone with issues that are so overpowering they turn away from the family that loves them.

We felt as you do in your last post but our ES's wife's influence was and is greater than ours.

I too think that all parents have some responsibility for how our children grow into adulthood but not all; there are so many other factors and influences and events that can impact on their adult choices. Different contexts create different responses and choices in adulthood and different people have different influences.

If we were only the sum of our upbringing then how could we ever develop and grow and learn as adults?

This is an excellent post Madgran, agree with you 100%. The question has to be asked; at what age do we have to accept responsibility for ourselves? Of course, if you've been abused physically, emotionally or mentally, it's to be expected that there will be scars from that. But at what point is it unhealthy to still be clutching and nursing those scars, or going back over it all again and again instead of moving on and making your life the best it can be? And is it possible that, for some, it's easier not to move on because we've allowed victimhood to define us?

Yes a great post Madgran and from you too Chewbacca.

All sorts of awful things can happen to children and adult children that parents don't know about, that can have impacts on how things are shaped. Times might change and things parents thought were good parenting back then aren't true now and that can shape things. So many many factors can happen. In 40 years time all my careful research and parenting could turn out to be harmful. That's evolution! I literally have qualifications in child development. I feel like one of the fortunate ones who actually did get training in how to parent. It could still be wrong. I'm not a psychologist but I think there are reasons behind everything and one day we will know and understand them all x

And is it possible that, for some, it's easier not to move on because we've allowed victimhood to define us?

It is a great shame when that is the case.

I don't think it's healthy to use what has happened to you to be an excuse to be an unreasonable person. I think that's not always conscious though for people who have developed genuine mental health issues or personality disorders at times x

So are you saying that those who are unable to move on with their lives, to put the past behind them and live happy and productive lives have developed genuine mental health issues or personality disorders Yennifer?

No that is not what I said at all. Most would always be trying to heal and its no one's business how long it takes. There are no magic buttons to push anywhere. Not everyone has access to needed resources and some have to put with people telling them to just get over it all the time without bothering to explain how. Some do develop life long mental health issues and I have compassion for them too even when they are unkind or abusive to me like my mother. I do not have to tolerate their crap though and risk becoming like them x

Ah, my mistake, apologies. Sounds like you have quite a long road ahead yet so I wish you a safe journey. X

Anyone who thinks they have achieved some sort of perfect equilibrium would be shocked to know how far they still have to go. Life can throw all sorts at us at any time. We are not in control of evedything. Not even our own thoughts at times. My measure of how well I have done or how healed I am won't be the same as anyone else's but I know I am happy and I know I feel good about my life and I have achieved things I didn't think possible. That's good enough for me and its good enough for my loved ones. I'm good enough and that's all I want to be x

That's nice.

I know, it's brilliant really x

In France it is more difficult to disinherit your blood line, children, higher taxes have to be paid by others who receive any money However, children or family members are expected by law to pay for close family care, retirement homes etc. if the older person does not have enough money
Inherited money is your money and is not included in divorce proceedings to be divided by the other person.

^Chewbacca Sat 29-Feb-20 19:34:19
But at what point is it unhealthy to still be clutching and nursing those scars, or going back over it all again and again^

I agree, good post.

I don't think we can blame our upbringing for what we become as adults. If that were the case I would be a very different person from the one I am. I have nothing but pride for my DCs and GDs but don't claim the credit in the same was as I would not blame the parent of an AC if their offspring became something they didn't like. I think there are so many outside influences from about secondary school that parents cannot do anything about that judging others is not appropriate.

Agree Nonnie

Yes, outside influences and inner personality traits (2 kids can be raised the same way, but each respond differently b/c of their individual personalities, I believe). IMO, parents usually have the most impact on you (general) when you are little, but as time moves on the influences of peers, siblings, other relatives, etc. become stronger - and eventually sweethearts and/or spouses and maybe your own AC.

Part of why it took me so long to go NC with my parents was because of the inheritance issue. That immediately sounds awful, I get that, but try to understand; material objects were long a primary source of my mother's control over me, and she spent a great deal of time and effort instilling and reinforcing those values in me. What's that one saying? It's easy for your parents to push your buttons - they put them there.

My mother showed her approval with baubles and gifts, and she often showed her ire by smashing my belongings or threatening to. She bought me things I didn't ask for and didn't want or even like, had never expressed any interest in in any capacity whatsoever, and turned a hateful gaze on me for not being excited enough when she pulled them out of the bag. When she was happy with me, she was generous. When she was devaluing me, I went without. I learned to associate love with materials and gifts. When I grew older, she would give gifts to my friends and tell me about them later and ask if I was jealous, growing obviously disappointed or even hostile if I didn't act appropriately mournful to have missed out. I don't think it could be considered surprising that I ended up stuck at the door of going NC, dreading the thought of her inevitably getting in one last jab when she finally does kick it - "look, I may be dead, but just so you really get the message: this is how I feel about you."

There's a very real chance she will send all her belongings off to the trash heap and the money off to support some cause she doesn't care about simply because it's contrary to my personal views and values. I sincerely hope so, anyway. I don't really want any reminders; her gifts always had too many strings anyway.

Here we go again.
Wherein lies the dilemma ?

Not sure I’d judge anyone for doing this, not unless I was thoroughly familiar with what had led to it.

Dh and I have recently been utterly shocked and appalled to hear of the behaviour of a newly married son towards his parents. It has only occurred since his marriage - there was no hint of any such thing before.
The parents are about the last people I would have expected such a thing to happen to - absolutely not interfering or overbearing types. It’s been a most enormous source of grief to them, and if they cut him out I wouldn’t blame them one bit, but given the people they are, I doubt they will do it.