The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.

It wasn't a hint, I don't really do hints!

And I apologise cos I have just realised that I had completely misread the poster name ...it WAS you, not Smileless...both begin with "S" but no idea how I did that!! Sorry!

That's really OK, I was most hurt and confused about what I had done wrong for a minute there

Starblaze -- On the "Support Thread" You made a comment about anger and I thought my reply better 'fit' on this thread. It is easy to forget at times that anger is/can be a healthy emotion. However when you grow up in a dysfunctional/abusive 'home' there is very little "healthy anger" to be found. So often Us Scapegoats come to see all anger as 'wrong' which is also dysfunctional thinking.

I truly believe, before victims can heal, they do have to get angry first. Being angry at the right 'thing' and in a "healthy way" is they key part... I think this is where abuse victims' either get better or become abusers themselves.

Those that have unhealthy anger, like my 'mom' whose 'normal'/default setting WAS anger, I think it is easiest to want that same 'power' because of the lack of basic respect they were deserved as children and didn't receive... And then repeat the cycle because now they have 'someone' that THEY can have complete control/power over... their off-spring, just like their parents did.

Healthy anger, in my case, is accepting that both sides of my 'genetic family' were abusive and that it's okay to be angry at those who were abused IF they didn't learn from it and repeated the same or did worse. I forgive my Golden Sib for her learned behavior and how she was allowed to get away with treating me as 'lesser'/bullying me because she taught it was 'okay'. What isn't okay/I don't condone or forgive her for is that long into adulthood and before our No Contact she didn't just treat Me as a 'lesser' but anyone else she put in "that category" just like she learned from Ma. She carried on the dysfunction that became the "poisoned pond" to Me after recovery.

I find a lot of people do it, if you are angry, you automatically lose whatever argument or discussion because YOU got angry so YOU are BAD.

Anger is healthy, often justifies and it's something we need to feel because it allows us to have our boundaries of acceptable behaviour towards us with anyone.

For years being angry made me think I must be in the wrong, it was hard to undo and I still sometimes reflex feel bad for feeling it

I continue to speak with my sibling- It can be intermittently healthy- When it isn't, it's brief- Like when they're "splashing", so to speak- And I exit the discussion or step back and don't respond to invites to chat or text-

When I do respond and stop it, it increases the distance and prevents continued "splashing"-

I'm not less- Not for offering measured explanations in an effort to reach an understanding, and not for cutting to the quick-

www.rejectedparents.net/forums/topic/i-should-have-known-better/#post-104151

This is one of the saddest things I have read. The amount of dysfunction that gets overlooked is astounding. There is so much behavior that I hear EP's saying they don't 'do' and yet there they are demonstrating them. Poor son and the DARVO.

Wow that was sad.

Starblaze -- What amazed me on that one was how much detail she gave and yet she, nor anyone else could see the problem(s).

Son felt 'ganged up on' according to her. She calls him up, won't be straight with him and when he gets frustrated/'abusive' to her mind, she dumps a massive guilt trip on him.

So after six years he makes an attempt to visit/talk to her and what happens? There is not enough space to write all the questions I asked him which he had no defense for and any explanation he gave held no water and was utter nonsense. I (she meant HE) brought up things that happened over 25 years ago. He never once looked me in the eye when responding and just kept his head down.

Then the cheer-leading/dysfunction begins. All of these EP's that are "willing to listen" and do "whatever they have to do" to fix the relationship, now are demonstrating anything but that attitude.

Then she adds this gem, "Can you believe ES will be 49! He never grew up mentally and he keeps re-hashing the same stuff over and over. All of which is utter and complete nonsense. Get over it already is what I would like to say to him but it will only end up with his being verbally abusive."

Gosh. He's been trying for 25 years to get her to acknowledge 'something' and all he got for trying to 'talk' and 'work things out' was more abuse and invalidation.

And the 'advise' included, "for your son to continually bring up problems from 25 years ago is ridiculous. He has had 25 years to get counseling for whatever he is angry about, and/or discuss with you, like an adult, and resolve it."

"my Ed does the same thing. To have a dialogue is impossible with someone who is only interested in a ranting monologue about stuff that happened (or didn’t) decades ago. This is crazy, if he has issues he should resolve them with you in an adult rational way and/or go to therapy."

For a bunch of non-abusive/healthy/'good parents' where is the behavior and attitude that backs those statements, because there is none of that demonstrated there.

Why do they even think their child might need therapy? Let's go deeper here, what caused your child to need therapy people? Could it be (gasp) something to do with you?

This is exactly how my mum thinks. Like emptying my childhood savings account then telling me it never existed. I still have the piggy money boxes the bank sent every time it hit a certain target amount to prove that it did. Yet I am the crazy one just running around making things up to be mad about.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202004/5-things-children-narcissists-wish-you-would-stop-saying

Starblaze -- There seems to be a disconnect between someone "continuously bringing something up" and the thought that perhaps the reason the 'thing' keeps "coming up" is because the person bringing 'it' up feels like they haven't been heard and the situation resolved.

And if the best reaction that someone can come up with when a child (adult or otherwise) is literally begging to be heard, is to be told, "Get over 'it'. If you're still angry about 'that', go to therapy." And if we take that advice and therapy says, "Walk away, you are never going to 'win'." You are still 'wrong'.

Just utter no win situations

Starblaze -- There's no win and then there's the perceptions/beliefs like this...

Here's a jaw dropper, "You know how when you watch different documentaries about serial killers, and how they talk about how there are “traits” or signs that these people have in common early in childhood. Some of these are bed wetting far beyond what would be considered the norm, setting fires, and the biggy is cruelty and in some cases taking the life of and mutilating animals. Now if these are precursors to diagnosing future serial killers, could this coldness to the death of animals previously attached to, be used to diagnose future parent rejectors? If this could be diagnosed early, perhaps an intervention could prevent some of these heart breakers from developing. Now I realize this is different in that they are grown young adults when this reaction happens, but a reaction in common is still a common reaction. I was just curious as to how many of these EC’s out there had the same cold reaction to the demise of the family pet?"

And the defensiveness/denial doesn't necessarily have to be harsh, it can be quite gentle when tip-toeing around the elephant in the room, in the phone call, the text, the discussion, the greeting card, the letter .. etc ..

It's an effort to "get around", and not in an effort to "get around to" addressing the elephant in the room-

My mother told me before she died that she wanted to kill my sibling- Not that she would have- From the outside my sibling appeared completely and totally devoted, their pattern for controlling so intricately planned and precisely executed-

It was "telling" ..

I've been re-reading our collective relationships as a family ever since- Re-weaving a different narrative out of the frayed, entangled threads .. And I feel strengthened by it-

HolyHannah Yes I have to say that is a bit of a jawdropper!!

Child probably learnt to hide emotion from her as self preservation. I learnt very quickly being too happy about something meant losing it and being sad meant being ridiculed

I love Jasmine, I always mean to get one but scared I won't be able to keep it alive.

Oh wrong thread. Early night I think

Madgran -- I really don't know what to think on that one. There is something very 'wrong' in that. I think part of it is comparing AC that estrange as being similar to serial killers.

"If this could be diagnosed early, perhaps an intervention could prevent some of these heart breakers from developing." Well of course. In my case if my mom hadn't abused me as a child I wouldn't have estranged. So yeah, if someone had stopped the dysfunction of the family unit, estrangement could have been prevented. The thing is, that is the parents 'job'. It's almost like she is saying, "I tried absolutely nothing and I'm all out of ideas. Why didn't 'somebody' do 'something' to prevent this from happening?"

I really think that is the general attitude of my mom, that her children were broken/defective and again, not all her fault while also being 'mostly' her fault...

She was the first to seek medical treatment, speech therapy, dental care and any and ALL other 'treatments' available to her children because to her, this is what a 'good mom' would/should do and she could "afford to" (using/spending $$$ to look 'better')

And this is where the dysfunction begins... Some of that stuff was good/the right things to do and needed but the rest was actually looking for and perceiving faults where none were. And all our 'mom' saw were 'faults' in need of "correction" in her kids.

Imagine the horror and humiliation of being pulled from 'normal classes' to be in "need" of a Speech Therapist when you are one of the best spoken in your class/grade? The 'reason' given by our 'mom' was, "You lisped." Our need for advanced 'speech therapy' at as early as 5 was because, like every growing child, we could pronounce everything "perfectly".

This of course gave the bullies their fodder... And while my Golden was protected in the school environment because that was the dynamic that was set up and backed by our 'parents', I got everything dumped on me. In other words, the other kids thought, "We'd laugh and mock both of you but we know we won't get 'in trouble' if we just mock Hannah... So let's bully her."

Correction -- We could not pronounce...

"I would give anything to go back and relish the days when my son loved me and was so excited to give me the gift he made in school…instead of today when all he does is tell me that I am undeserving of any recognition…the thing is, I don’t think I stopped being a good mom…I think he stopped being a good son…"

I can so relate to that... We loved and gave and loved and gave more and when we realize we'll never get the love, approval and respect we want? We become 'bad' kids.

As a theme... How many people that identify as EAC consider themselves to be the Scapegoat in their 'family'?

I am curious to know if there was a good child(ren) and the 'bad child' dynamic going on before going No Contact...

I know after, EP's often refer to the NC child as the 'bad' child... And any of their off-spring that are still talking to them as 'good'.

Funny that just the ACT of not wanting to be around our 'parent' that find Us bad/evil/immature/ungrateful etc. is some kind of assault on THEM. Nothing about those labels being tossed at Us is offensive though...

Oh wait... I 'forgot'... Since that is 'truth' We shouldn't be hurt/offended...

as I've said before, some parents must be so grateful for no contact.

It's funny how I often hear from EP's that they "never say" certain things or hear other EP's saything them. I find them saying 'those things' quite frequently and then when I provide a quote? That's not a "common thinking" or some other excuse/justification.

"I never claimed to be a perfect parent but believe me, that nearly fifty year old ‘child’ needs her bottom whupped!" -- Boy if we talked about slapping the abuser off of them...

"I’m not trying to sugar-coat anything, or come off as the perfect mother or not take responsibility. I feel like you do, I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong." -- I'd love to know the difference between "not perfect" and having done nothing wrong. Sounds the same to me.