"The person who believes their truth is the truth will also need it to be believed"
HolyHannah I think there is a misunderstanding here. I meant that THAT person will HAVE a need to be believed.
Being asked for an honest opinion
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
The only apologies I ever got were 'sorry if that upset you' or 'sorry you feel that way' or 'sorry but you always' or 'sorry I wasn't a perfect parent, no one is'. I thought they were real until I tried to have a conversation about whatever it was and got told it didn't happen, I'd imagined it or I just couldn't take jokes. i wonder if their children ever got a real apology? There's no clues because they don't say what they apologised for so hard to know x
Sorry pressed post to quickly
....HolyHannah I think there is a misunderstanding here. I meant that THAT person will HAVE a need to be believed.
....I didnt mean they necessarily SHOULD be believed , if there is evidence that their "truth" is not the truth!
The world isn't flat, it isn't round, it's ever changing- Wider at the equator due to centrifugal force, and it has mountains and deep trenches- It's beautiful-
We've all abused it-
EP -- "I beg you not to apologize for something that didn’t happen and not only that call her out on it." This is the kind of dysfunctional 'advice' EP's give each other in the absence of any differing perspective.
Do you want to know what the AC thinks? "Wow. Here I am, laying 'things' out in desperation, trying to 'fix' this relationship yet again and not only am I not being 'heard' she's "doubling down" and calling Me a liar yet again. Yes... Continue to behave in the same ways that are driving Me away... THAT will 'fix' the issues." and add an internal eye-roll and No Contact soon after.
The other thing that is a "common theme" is the, "I 'apologized' and that just lead to more made up abuse stuff from my AC." As demonstrated by an EP saying, "I apologize for things I didn’t do and things that didn’t happen just so we could put it in the past. Well, that was a disaster! My child then made up more lies and totally changed her childhood and the things that came back to me was debilitating to me."
I can explain why this happens as well... If the AC feels that they may finally be 'get through' to the parent, if the parent gives an apology for even the most minor of their behaviors, then the AC will feel like, "Okay, now that you owned that 'small thing' can We talk about the bigger thing(s)?" So the AC tries to talk about the 'bigger issue' and the parent reverts back to, "I apologized already..."
If you were an abusive parent, one "I'm sorry." does not come close to equaling/'fixing' the 1000 unjust 'punishments'/abuses heaped on a helpless/dependent child.
I've just watched an informative discussion on the BBC's 'The Big Question' about the changes being made to the domestic violence/abuse Act.
When all the proposed changes become law, they'll include financial abuse, emotional abuse and coercive control.
IMO coercive control is particularly relevant when looking at the subject of estrangement, as the coercive control of an AC can and does result in that AC estranging their parents and often their entire family.
I've often seen an EP who speaks of their once close and loving relationship with their AC being destroyed by that AC's partner/husband/wife, being responded too with disbelief and at times scorn.
When this form of abuse and its consequences does become recognised in law, it may help some EP's to understand and possibly accept more readily their estrangement. It may also help an AC who is in a coercive and abusive relationship to see that they are being abused and seek help.
Parents can provide a loving environment but at the same time fail to prepare their children to recognize persons with damaging baggage-
rosecarmel -- I may have found a unicorn. Unfortunately if you read the comments, non-unicorns show up to tell her that she's 'wrong'.
psiloveyou.xyz/this-is-what-your-estranged-child-wants-you-to-do-4b65022152bb
HolyHannah that needs it's own thread. It needs to be talked about properly. Even my mother could have undone estrangement following that advice x
It's not something we ever thought about doing TBH. Often the problem surfaces too late; they're already in the relationship, married with a child on the way.
HHh, that article is gold- Reconciliation isn't the Holy Grail- Personal growth is- It's a lifelong commitment to looking at ugly truths and discovering what's beautiful and being transparent equally with each-
My personal anchor or mantra is: I had kids- I have to remind myself of this whenever I start to drift -
It's not something we ever thought about doing TBH. Often the problem surfaces too late; they're already in the relationship, married with a child on the way.
Sorry Smileless what did you not think about doing? I'm getting a bit lost in this conversatio thread.
Oh sorry Madgran I was referring to rosecarmel's post and should have made that clear.
We never thought of preparing our sons to recognise someone with damaging baggage.
Smileless, the "condition" existed prior to the marriage and the birth- Like many things in life, certain elements need to come together before they implode or explode-
Smileless, you're not alone!
Self reflection/personal growth:
--->>> "We never thought of preparing our sons to recognise
someone with damaging baggage."
Common Theme -- "EAC like you are parent bashing."
In one of the videos I watched on the page of an EP on YouTube she basically says to anyone who doesn't agree with her, "Don't say, 'You said this.' and 'You said that' blah, blah, blah... Just don't do that!"
So, talk about 'allergic' to accountability. "Don't use what I say 'against' me." And then she wonders why her daughter had addiction issues and finally went No Contact.
Once people get healthier and see through the dysfunction it becomes impossible to be closely around those type of people especially if that person was the 'parent' and used to hold 100% 'power' over you. They can abuse that victim 10x's more then 'outsiders' will tolerate so when a child reaches the breaking point of going No Contact... Well connect the dots...
EP's had 100% control over their minor children and they 'abused' the role/job of parent. This was done over at least 2 decades if not longer. The level of maltreatment a child will 'accept' and still love and crave the affection of their parent(s) is HIGH. So when it gets to the point of NC the 'parent' has a lot of work to do. Period.
And yet again, EP 'logic' kicks in quick. "Well, I admitted that maybe some of your issues might be caused by poor adult decisions that I made and I'm sorry that hurt you but your estranging and with-holding my grand-children hurt me..." The AC has now mentally 'left the conversation'.
One quick admission and one vague apology is not about to undo years of trauma especially to the Scapegoat child of the family. I could tell finger nail curling stories of the silly, immature things my mom did as a parent and person. If I confronted her with those things she's break down and sob, "Why are you being so mean? Do you know how much it hurts to hear all the things I've done 'wrong' while I was doing my best?!?!"
Me -- "Well... Yes actually. That was living with you when I was a child. It's even worse when the person pointing out all your flaws is your 'loving' parent. Yes, it is a parent's job to help their children with their flaws but without any praise for anything? It's just continuous emotional abuse."
My point is, IF you think one quick 'anything' will lead to reunification you are going to remain an expert at being estranged If you think the 'one quick whatever' is "good enough" then you are like a runner three steps into a marathon acting like you're inches from the finish line and looking for a roaring applause. Great first steps but no where near through the race.
torontosun.com/life/relationships/ask-amy-toxic-family-leaves-a-mark
This shows some valuable insight.
Estranged Parents having the belief that their child is somehow the worst of the two of them for estranging is a huge and ridiculous problem. Their belief that the act of estrangement is a bigger crime than anything they have ever committed.
A. When you get sent to court on multiple charges, you don't just get a sentence for whichever crime was the worst. It's the same with estrangement, it's the sum of all the abusive behaviour.
B. Estrangement is not cruel and it's not abusive. It is simple self defence. Again in court, a case would be closed if a victims act is in self defence ie: The victim was given no other choice. The victim is innocent and will carry no criminal record.
The truth is that for most former victims of childhood abuse, shame is likely one of the worst effects of the abuse. Unless you heal this pervasive shame you will likely continue to suffer from its effects throughout your lifetime.
www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-compassion-chronicles/201501/healing-the-shame-childhood-abuse-through-self-compassion
This explains the after affects of child abuse perfectly. It's a long read but very insightful.
www.vetmed.wsu.edu/docs/librariesprovider16/default-document-library/the-long-shadow-adult-survivors-of-childhood-abuse.pdf?sfvrsn=0
This is another deep read for child abuse survivors.
I've bookmarked those to read again Holyhannah I have issues sometimes with allowing myself to heal.
Starblaze -- When I read the line, "The truth is that for most former victims of childhood abuse, shame is likely one of the worst effects of the abuse. Unless you heal this pervasive shame you will likely continue to suffer from its effects throughout your lifetime." I thought, there it is. That's the 'thing' that is the biggest obstacle for dysfunctional thinkers.
And here's a newsflash -- It doesn't matter which 'side' you are on (victim or abuser) shame is the anchor of dysfunctional thinking. I was taught unhealthy behavior and saw that as 'normal'. Seeing dysfunctional thinking/behavior as 'normal' is itself a dysfunctional belief and can quickly slide into enabling behavior.
Abusers are full of shame and in the case of those that abuse children? They should be! People who get their jollies from abusing their children should be ashamed! This is why victims of abuse are so much more likely to pass on that abuse/toxic shame -- It's "normal" to them and learned dysfunctional thinking from their own abuse.
This is why when I hear EP's say, "I know all about abuse! I was abused as a child myself!" I think, "Yeah, I know you were and you can shout all you want about how you have 'gotten over it' but you are estranged AND currently demonstrating all kinds of unhealthy thinking patterns... So I don't believe you are nearly as emotionally healthy as you claim to be."
We're all familiar with the saying, "Misery loves company." which is true of abusers. They aren't happy and no one around them is 'allowed' to be either. The fact of the matter is, if they owned their unhappiness/dysfunction/shame they could move toward happiness/functional thinking and peace but first you have to admit there is something 'wrong' with you. Because child abuse victims have been told so often they are 'wrong' (when that is not the case) that it becomes impossible for some victims to admit that all that is 'wrong' with them is they learned dysfunction behavior from an abuser and are just repeating the cycle.
In order for that to work though, the victim has to acknowledge that their behavior/thinking patterns are 'wrong' and then change them. And some people will never admit they are wrong because that would make them '"look bad" (fear of that toxic shame) and so they peddle on and try to bully/shame and discredit healthy thinking.
Dr Brene Brown researched shame extensively- You can find her talks and articles on the subject online- Her book I Thought It Was Just Me dives deeply into the subject-
All of her books are hugely insightful-
So much is revealed about ourselves by what we write, by how much compassion or not, we extend to others in their suffering.
A shared experience often brings people together as they help to support one another, but even when there is a shared experience the compassion and understanding we hoped and maybe expected to find, sometimes alludes us.
For example here on this thread an EP who speaks of their own experience of abuse is accused of shouting, and that same EP who should be respected for having been able to put that terrible experience behind them and "gotten over it" as far as anyone can truly get over such a terrible experience, is further ridiculed by the suggestion that their estrangement from their own AC is somehow connected to what happened to them in childhood.
Who is anyone to decry another's revelation of their own abuse?
I am thankful that I am both strong enough and mature enough to be unaffected by anyone, anyone at all who may wish to question my emotional health.
I learned many years ago that I was neither responsible for the abuse I suffered, or should ever feel guilty for what was done to me by another.
That has stood me in good stead and empowered me to understand and accept that I am neither responsible for, or should feel any guilt for my estrangement.
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