I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
No idea what you are talking about Smileless this is the EAC thread for estranged children who have suffered at the hands of abusive parents. We discuss abusive parents here. If anyone wants to come here and be abusive who happens to be an estranged parent... Then that's their choice.
An EAC thread *shrug
Smileless -- You are commenting on a thread of common themes EAC understand that EP's do not and are yet again displaying the things I am speaking about.
There is a vast difference between being compassionate, understanding and supportive and being an enabler. Enablers are dysfunctional thinkers who learned the behavior from their own abuse. I have nothing but compassion for victims that break the cycle.
You say someone was "further ridiculed by the suggestion that their estrangement from their own AC is somehow connected to what happened to them in childhood." This is a disconnect/dysfunctional thought. If you understood how the cycle of abuse works you would know that is exactly what happens. You learn dysfunctional behavior as a child and continue that into adulthood. It's all in the articles I just posted.
Who is anyone to decry another's revelation of their own abuse? Answer -- No one. Abuse victims deserve compassion until they become abusers themselves and/or enable other dysfunctional thinkers/abusers. It becomes a full stop then. I don't 'feel sorry for' abuse victims who repeat the cycle. And me refusing be an enabler is does not make me 'immature' or not compassionate.
Having been abused is not an excuse or justification for bad behavior and does not give a 'free pass' to anyone. "I was abused, so even if I act poorly due to my tragically learned dysfunctional upbringing, I am owed to be excused for whatever I do!" Nope. Sorry. Not how I roll. I take personal responsibility for my behavior and if my mom did too? We'd have a relationship.
I'm not a perfect person. Mostly I'm nice, sometimes I'm kind of a bitch. I'm responsible for all of it. I've left behind huge amounts of dysfunctional behaviour and it happens in waves. I become aware, I work on it. My dysfunction has mostly manifested as self harm. I think, hey! Here I am doing OK! Then I read an article like the one you posted Holyhannah and I can see room for improvement. Do I want/need to be a perfect person? Nope. Do I want to be absolutely sure I pass none of this crap to my kids? Yep. Can I do that if I look at myself as innocent and blameless and a total victim who doesn't bother reading and learning? Nope. Etc.
If our ES and his wife took responsibility for their behaviour, we could have had a relationship too.
Starblaze -- Those articles were both eye opening reads for me as well. I too know I am doing much better emotionally but those definitely gave me new ideas as to where I may be overlooking personal flaws.
As for my personality? I am very nice right until I am not. That said, I give people lots of verbal warning by saying things like, "You know that doing 'x' can trigger me. Please do 'y' instead..." in other words, I try to diffuse tension before it leads to anger.
I have mentioned that abusers/dysfunctional thinkers 'default setting' is anger and as a Scapegoat I was never allowed to be angry. I have had to learn what healthy anger is/looks like so I don't lash out inappropriately. So yeah, I have definitely learned the art of honest self-reflection.
I know what you mean about anger Holyhannah I cry when I should be angry. Learnt to skip straight past where I would be shamed and blamed for being justifiably angry to the hurt sobbing.
Starblaze -- Crying is another one. I cried a lot as a child (mostly justifiably). When I went through recovery I learned about healthy crying. Now I cry a lot (my poor family LOL) but I cry when I feel that is the correct emotion. I am as likely to cry over happy stuff as sad and it's very therapeutic especially when you are supported and not mocked for showing emotion at all. I am very open with my emotions and I have more then just anger.
There are no bad emotions. Your reaction to those emotions is what is either good/bad or healthy/unhealthy. For example, an EP is unhappy at not having 'equal time' with the grand-kids versus the other set of GP's -- healthy thinking would be, "I should be happy with the time I have with them." or, "Is there a reason they may be limiting my time with the children?" or "My child and their children seem healthy and happy and that should make me happy."
An unhealthy reaction would be to bring it up with the AC or pester the AC for 'more time' etc.. Unfortunately dysfunctional thinkers believe there is a 'good way' to bring up their jealous insecurities. Hint -- There isn't. The fact that abusers don't even realize that is why they are behaving that way ends any chance that their AC can get them to see reason. And then when the cut the GP off altogether? "I didn't do anything!" Definitely a common theme.
Smileless -- My mom runs on, "I was abused, so even if I act poorly due to my tragically learned dysfunctional upbringing, I am owed to be excused for whatever I do!"
She is the one not owning her behavior. I do. You do not recognize your behavior as demonstrated here and you are estranged. It's 100% on you DiL according to you. Your attitude and that assertion show your dysfunctional thinking quite clearly.
Your attitude certainly fits with what EAC's understand about EP's. Most blame Us and never look at themselves even when acting in the ways that we cite as reasons we estranged from our own parent(s). If I see two 2's, I'm going to think 4. If you want to say it's 5? That can be your belief but I will continue to 'do math' my way.
And even if your son and DiL were to own their behavior it would only solve 50% of the issues. So why should they bother since they know you aren't willing to own your 50%?
I'd suggest lowering the bar to 10% or even 5% to start- 50% is too much to expect- People in healthy relationships can navigate fluctuating percentage rates and even then rarely are they 50/50- More like 60/40 or 80/20, depending on what life throws at them and when-
In her book Inside Out, Demi Moore addresses accountability poignantly, with an emphasis on moving forward with or without your kids after efforts have been made- Especially the last chapter of the book-
rosecarmel -- I have looked at some of Dr. Brown's work and I admit she is correct on what I did watch. For Me, she comes across as a Golden Child that has gotten emotionally healthier, so it's sort of like listening to my Golden sister telling Me things about emotional health that I have already learned. The way she speaks of the affects of her child-hood don't resonate with me. That is called being biased. And I can admit I am. Self reflection folks...
Just because Dr. Brown is correct doesn't mean that her way of presenting the truth is palatable to Me. If I am correct and she is a Golden figuring out her 'role' was just as dysfunctional/abusive as what Scapegoats suffer? Great on her. Golden's overcoming their abuse is A LOT more complex then the Scapegoat/Me type.
I don't care how someone comes to find healthier thinking/beliefs. Given her audience/following numbers, if she is selling that and you agree? I say, "Preach on Sister!" to her.
Healthy thinking message here -- "You don't have to like someone to agree with them. And just because you don't 'like' someone doesn't mean you have to/must discredit them or their truth/reality or what they are saying or teaching."
I can cite sources of people saying the same things as Dr. Brown does who I do resonate with/relate to... Dysfunctional thinkers/abusers never seem to find anyone that they don't 'like' to be telling truths.
HolyHannah, there are unhealthy tendencies/temperaments associated with every personality type- Or in other words dispositions that condition and set bias/preferences, which in turn prevent or blur clarity/learning/ when lessons are presented-
Smileless said, "It's not something we ever thought about doing TBH-" It isn't 50%- (prefered) But it isn't 0% either- It was 100% realization/accountability-
A realization that seemed to have gone under the radar or purposely not acknowledged -- by 99.9%-
Whatever percentage my relationship with my mum was I don't know. I only really got sweeping statements, I was selfish and difficult and too sensitive, no specific complaints. But whatever the percentage was, she did her part on purpose. Literally planned attacks. I never ever set out to hurt her. I loved her.
"moving on with or without your kids after efforts have been made" is I hope something all EP's will be able to do eventually. The same for EAC, that they move on with or without their parent(s).
When an abused child eventually has children of their own, abuse, especially of the nature they were subjected too, is high on the radar. I used to wonder when our boys were young if I'd been even more anxious if they'd been girls; would they have been more vulnerable?
I'm not sure if our ES had been our D, if we'd have been alerted to the manipulative, controlling and coercive nature of his partner.
When the final blow to our relationship had been struck, and we looked back at what had happened, it seemed so obvious but at the time we were clueless.
You can "move on" and still talk about it Smileless, you've been doing that 8 years have you not? As for damage done by an abusive childhood, not nearly as easy. Most don't know just how damaged they are unless they actively seek to find out. Even then, problems still exist. I have accepted I will never not be an anxious person and will always be prone to depression. All I can do is manage both.
Having been able to move on enables you to share with others the coping mechanisms for example that you learned. It can also I think be a light at the end of what appears to be an endless dark tunnel.
Knowing that others have moved on, rebuilt their lives and found peace and happiness gives hope to those who are still struggling to just get through each a day.
Hearing from those who'd managed to do so, in the early, darkest days of out estrangement gave me comfort and hope.
Exactly. There are many estranged parents who don't want to move on and want to heal the relationship. There are many adult children waiting for evidence of change. So learning methods to heal those relationships is also very helpful for those who want that. So that is the stance that most estranged children I know come from because most of us didn't want this, we had NO CHOICE other than stay as things are or go. This is because most estranged parents don't listen to us and look for ways to shut us down. Much like our own parents.
There are many EAC who don't want to move on either. There are many EP's waiting for evidence of change. None of the EP's I know wanted estrangement but have no choice because of the choice their EAC made.
There are some EAC who don't listen to EP's and look for ways to shut EP's down. Much like our own EAC.
Not really Smileless unless they are perpetuating the abuse cycle of course because if there is another thing estranged children KNOW it is that you can be aware you were abused and still be abusive. AKA our parents.
There are no estranged children here looking to shut down estranged parents, just dysfunctional thinking from anyone.
Really!!! "There are no estranged children here looking to shut down estranged parents" it's happening all the time.
As for seeing dysfunctional thinking in others there are some here should remove the log from their own eye before trying to remove a splinter from someone else's.
Not really Smileless never seen an estranged child tell anyone to "get over it" or "go back to mums net" or the like....
Blind support just isn't the way forward I'm afraid. We don't do it for each other so why would we do it for estranged parents?
Pointing out dysfunctional thinking isn't shutting anyone down its opening up possibilities.
Just look at Holyhannah is she going round saying that estranged children are poor innocent victims to be put up on pedistals of wonderfulness? Nope. She posts a lot of articles for us which are painful to read but ultimately help us understand ourselves and heal. If we choose to read them. I've read them. It was hard going but eye opening. If she was an estranged parent posting the same, I'd still read them and thank her.
There are other ways of shutting people down and plenty of examples here on GN and I totally disagree with you that there isn't blind support here from some EAC for one another.
But do those articles help you to heal? I see more anger and bitterness from some EAC here on GN than I ever see from EP's. IMO those articles do seek to portray EAC "are poor innocent victims" as well as portraying all EP's as villains.
Of course some EAC are innocent victims but then again so are some EP's.
You are very very biased to be fair Smileless I've seen some very kind sweet posters bullied away remember. The one estranged child you do have time for isn't all that nice a person.
"do those articles help you heal? I've seen more anger and bitterness bla bla bla"
Just uncalled for really and the type of thing I am talking about.
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