Harrassment?

Joyful. I despise the bitch. I would be happy for her to be under a bus.
However. He is an adult and I have told him if he wants to carry on going through this merry go round he is more than welcome to.

But he doesn’t. He is devastated by her behaviour and actions. He is hurt that he never got a decent mother. Tortured that she just couldn’t master being a decent human being.
But he is done.

I did tell him once years ago that I wanted a divorce because I wanted her out of my life.
Then she did what she does best and screwed him over and he came home and said she is out.
I used to spend the first year or so feeling we had to defend our choices.

Even though his childhood friends were telling him it was right. And that he would be a moron to go back to her.

Now I don’t care. I don’t care if you think I’m controlling.
I don’t care if you think she deserves one more chance. She doesn’t. We don’t want her and we don’t owe her anything.
I don’t care if people think her and our children should have a relationship. They shouldn’t. She is toxic and they have zero memories of her. She has never met the youngest.

This whole ‘heal the estrangement’ is BS.
We are estranged because we don’t want her in our lives. What possible reason would we have for going back?

It's a huge relief not be a part of a dysfunctional family even though the love you have for some of the members remains.

I think ladies that we aren't anyone's emotional punch bags any more and I don't exist for someone to get their jollies by making nasty, gaslighting and unnecessary remarks.

I think what Joyfulnanna is not understanding is that our abusive parents and in-laws can't just be reasoned with or anything else. The problem is their perception of us as immature and not quite as 'good' as they are. Therefore anything they say or do is now okay because in some way we earned/deserve their crappy/abusive behavior.

They see nothing 'wrong' because of their dysfunctional rationale so nothing changes. Emotionally healthier people cannot tolerate the dysfunction and have two choices to stay healthy -- Stay away or go back to their role in the dysfunction.

Yet it is "selfish" to not want to participate in a dysfunctional 'family' when your role is garbage bin/litter box? Hardly.

"Deriving pleasure from the control you have stopped him from seeing her?"

Can you write anything more insulting and demeaning? I am not challenging you, btw

Joyfulnanna

You are doubting our actions and decisions. Not that I need your approval and validation - I cannot speak for my fellow survivors.

Even though you see the hell we went through, but you also say

"that must have been some damage, but are you sure you haven't turned your DH against his own mother if you feel that strongly about her yourself. Also I hope you don't derive pleasure from the control you have stopping him seeing her"
Her dh is a person capable making his own decisions, again with the myth of "the wife being the wild witch of the west and everything was fine before she met my son"
Rofl.

And

"It's terrible to be called immature by a parent and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with that. Challenging this with good humour is the key to resolving differences. But if that 'will' is gone, no one needs to make any excuse that their life has been ruined beyond repair. They should accept that the choice to cut someone out of their life is a completely selfish one, because that's what it is. I am not saying that's not right for one's wellbeing of course. If you can only live in peace without that person, it's your life."

Humour helps to fix differences? ?

Cutting someone off is selfish?

joyfulnanna I can't believe you would just dismiss it as selfish. I have friends, other family and children who all benefit from a happier healthier me. Not to mention the ways my children were also abused and the fact that she made them unhappy and uncomfortable. The other aspect is the fact that watching me be abused teaches them the wrong lessons. Either that it is OK for people who are supposed to love you to treat you badly or that it is OK to treat people you are supposed to love badly.

Estragement Isn't inherently selfish. I understand you have your views on it but there are a lot of children out there suffering, especially in these times, whose parents do not deserve them.

Bobbitt - that must have been some damage, but are you sure you haven't turned your DH against his own mother if you feel that strongly about her yourself. Also I hope you don't derive pleasure from the control you have stopping him seeing her. I have an ex who has made it his life's work to exclude me from the family, bitterness reins strong. I just feel sorry for him.
Holy Hannah - as parents we adapt as our children grow into adults, but deep down they are our babies and we want to help and protect them, sometimes we overstep the mark but that doesn't mean we're all bad. I caveat that to mean the parents who haven't abused their children, the ones like me who have just been a normal parent who can admit to making silly mistakes at times. I know that my children are grown, and can respect that they want their autonomy, just as I did when I had grown up. It's terrible to be called immature by a parent and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with that. Challenging this with good humour is the key to resolving differences. But if that 'will' is gone, no one needs to make any excuse that their life has been ruined beyond repair. They should accept that the choice to cut someone out of their life is a completely selfish one, because that's what it is. I am not saying that's not right for one's wellbeing of course. If you can only live in peace without that person, it's your life. I hope I don't seem unkind because some of you have gone through your own hell and come out the other side. But I do wonder if patterns will repeat in families where this is common, society needs compassion and tolerance to be civilized.

Joyfulnanna

It’s my MiL. My husbands mother.
And I don’t care if she had a personality transplant. Fell to the floor bedding for forgiveness and made every promise possible.
To late. Damage done.
We are happier without her.
Yes, it causes the estrangement to continue.
That’s the point.
We have absolutely no need for her in our lives. We are happy and fulfilled and came out of everything stronger.

She could be alone and miserable and we are past caring.

Joyfulnanna -- it seems like your parents have absolutely no respect for you. Maybe they never have. Sounds like you've been trying for years to explain why things aren't conducive to a healthy relationship with them.

This is a common theme with EAC. We don't feel like we were ever respected/valued or listened to... Because we were not and continued to not be even when we reached adult age.

So this goes deep, throughout your whole life? They undermined you, tried to control you etc. To a certain degree that is the nature of humans. and It's not an unreasonable thing to think about, it doesn't have to be abusive. and By defininition, parents make some choices for their children, they guide, mentor, impose their own thoughts and views on their children, as part of the child's cultural upbringing.

I agree with all of those things. It's not so black and white where abuse is concerned. Someone being more 'in control' in a relationship of equal adults can be healthy. It can also be dysfunctional/abusive depending on the situation.

There is a huge difference between a healthy power imbalance and unhealthy. I think most EAC would agree that a huge reason for estrangement is that parents want to continue the "normal" power imbalance of an adult over a minor child, into their child's adulthood/past when it's appropriate.

When the AC finally reaches their limit on "listening to mommy because she always knows best" and start to want the same autonomy? Then We get called disrespectful or immature and are clearly being 'controlled' by some 'outside influencer'.

Also, as for the cultural/religious aspects of things, I have mixed feelings around that. How the parent handles if their AC prefers to follow a 'different path' says everything about the health of the relationship. But that's a whole different thread/topic itself.

Actually, in my case, worrying about controlling people - I became hyper aware of not imposing anything on other people and I was a doormat. I was also taught that assertiveness was selfish.

And like Starblaze, I think my bed is also calling.

Hithere, yes. It's not an unreasonable thing to think about, it doesn't have to be abusive. If you think about most relationships where people joke about which partner"wears the trousers" and happy wife = happy life, it is clear that someone's more on charge. By defininitio, parents make some choices for their children, they guide, mentor, impose their own thoughts and views on their children, as part of the child's cultural upbringing. There are natural leaders in families, who make more choices than family members who are passive. I don't know, must putting it out there

Also there is a sheep in my road at 1.24 in the morning. I'm just going to give up on reality and go to sleep.

joyfulnanna might sound weird but I have no animosity towards her and I honestly hope she is happy. I don't think she is capable but I hope she is. Something/someone broke her I expect. She chose to abuse me to cope with that and that's not OK but, I'm here, I'm happy. What would be the point in more anger?

I did! I thought manipulating people was absolutely fine... Until I realised it wasn't. Then I had a lot of apologising to do. I wonder if that is one of the forks in the road between becoming abusive and breaking the cycle.

Starblaze
I would remind your mother of what she told you about being dirty and disgusting, when you told her about the abuse. I would demand an apology for her, and financial compensation. She can't get away with that.

Are you asking if I ever tried to control other people?

Anyway, that all got very personal, let's not do that again.

Its so sad reading stories from others with a mum like mine. They are so similar. I think that's another thing that helps a lot. We struggle to have empathy for ourselves but have it for others, helping us see that we deserve better also.

Hithere
So this goes deep, throughout your whole life? They undermined you, tried to control you etc. To a certain degree that is the nature of humans. Are you saying you've never done this?

A lot of rugs weeping went on when we were children and young women. Thank goodness people are fighting that now.

I feel loved and wanted, that's what really fixed me. There is nothing more painful than feeling unloved and unwanted by your own mum. Everything else I did cope with in time and I can talk about it dispassionately because I know none of it was my fault and I've forgiven myself. It wasn't her father, paternal side. When I literally told my mother exactly what had happened she told me not to tell anyone as they would think I was dirty and discusting. Really I think she just didn't want the shame. I did however speak out in time to protect my much younger sister but nothing was ever actually done. He died, slowly, in pain so there is that I suppose.

Starblaze
Whilst I may like her, I wouldn't be fooled, sorry no I wouldn't. And no, I don't think you are not well enough to manage her behaviour. Those incidences of sexual abuse have not been resolved, they probably never will. I wonder whether she was also sexially abused? Her father?
Putting her little girl at risk and not listening to concerns is very neglectful. Only once did something happen to me in a doctors office that I knew wasn't right, I told my mother and she dismissed it. I was disgusted with her not listening to my concerns, but I was older than 8. I guess I learned from a young age that males will always try to take advantage of girls.

Joyfulnanna

Exactly, 0 respect.

I was not allowed to be my own person with my own personality unless they approved of it.

If you met them, you would love them. Generous, bubbly, inviting, would do everything for you.
They would tell you their only sins were loving me too much and giving me everything I ever asked for.

They would make me sound like a brat - how do I dare complain about them sneaking meat in my food when they were only worried I wasn't getting enough protein with my vegetarian diet? Dont I see they are doing it for my own good?
I became vegetarian in my early thirties. I still am, many years later.

The funny thing is that their circle of friends rotates every 2 to 3 years and they do not why their friends stop calling.

Hithere and Holyhannah I am grateful and proud to know you both even in this small way and I think you are amazing.

Hugs, SB