SUPPORT for all living with the pain of estrangement

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My saying for example "perhaps you should not send a birthday card if you have been asked for no contact" shouldn't be taken as an assertation that I think anyone asking for advice about that or anything else is abusive. It isn't one. It's just using my experience to advise and perhaps prevent more future pain and upset for the person asking

I have observed you reply kindly, thoughtfully and helpfully with advice to EPs asking this question, Starblaze. I don't think I have seen anyone say that you are therefore saying that EP is abusive, but if I missed that, apologies.

I don't think the problems here are one side or the other. I think effort needs to be made on both sides to actually read comments. Look at the context of the person writing the comment and the context of what they are discussing and where they are discussing it. Allow people the right to relate their experiences to different topics as their experience is who they are and disallowing that is tantamount to telling them to shut up and go away

I agree with this as a general comment. In terms of reading what is actually said, very true for all of us I think, as it is so easy to misunderstand/misinterpret etc and it can cause unnecessary problems.

I think I would also suggest that everyone consider how a comment might be read, within the context of a particular discussion. Also, consider whether one's own experience, in detail, is helpful in a particular context as opposed to giving an opinion and advice for someone to consider within their own experience and problem that they might have asked advice on.

Just to clarify I am talking generally like you in your post above, not specifically to you in terms of styles of posting etc

setting up a thread that was meant to be a safe space for EAC to talk without risking causing offense

I think the title of the EAC resources thread (Part 2) that you recently started is better than previously because its purpose is very clear in that title and was a good idea on your part. I suppose that on a public forum others will have an interest in that, particularly EPs who are searching for answers , maybe trying to work out the thinking of their own EAC. Alongside that EACs will have different experiences and approaches to their estrangement as will EPs and it makes for such a mix doesn't it.

No-one should have to take the EAC blame or the EP blame If a particular link/quote etc is not relevant to their particular experience/story then accepting that it is relevant to someone else's is easier if that is acknowledged when the link/quote/story is posted. Acknowledgement of the differences in experience and story do help, between EACs, between EPs and between EP{s and EACs to each other.

I don't know what the answer is to the difficulties that keep arising on the estrangement threads; it would be nice for everyone if they could stop though.

Madgran all of my first comment was general, and I appreciate your general reply and see where you are coming from.

To carry on in general terms:

I am very tired of accusations lately when I specifically clarify abusive parents and don't talk as if all estranged parents are the same.

I am tired of being ridiculed for simply saying my mum needs help. Reconsiliation for me will not come without counselling, accountability and a change in her behaviour.

Every step I have taken was recommended by trained professionals because my mum has literally driven me to suicide in the past and it was a miracle I survived. More recently she drove me to a breakdown where I again didn't want to be here, only this time, with children AC of my own, I had to find a way to survive. Estrangement was my only escape.

Despite all that, I would still dearly love to have a good relationship with my mum. That's why there are terms for reconsiliation, not a permanently slammed door. Unfortunately she shows no signs of changing.

So the next logical step when you look at my thinking is:

In general, people need and want their parents. Parents need and want their children. This includes many EAC and EPs I have spoken to.

Therefor, I base my advice (and I've said this so many times) on improving the possibility of a reconsiliation happening.

That doesn't mean I always get the delivery right but my heart is in the right place.

I do believe that many EAC think the same way. I would assume that EPs would also want to help reconsiliation.

So if perhaps some do not like my thoughts or advice on certain topics, is it really true that I am an awful individual trying to be unkind or is it true that perhaps, my advice or thinking just goes against their past choices and the anger is coming from there?

Again, we just end up with different behaviour and personalities of individuals as causing the actual problems here.

Not "sides"

Surely reconsiliation and a positive future relationship is what everyone wants. If not, maybe that's when it is time to find a way to move on. Not get over it, because I doubt many ever will.

So if perhaps some do not like my thoughts or advice on certain topics, is it really true that I am an awful individual trying to be unkind or is it true that perhaps, my advice or thinking just goes against their past choices and the anger is coming from there?

I don't think the thoughts or advice are necessarily the problem in general terms; in many cases I think it is the way those thoughts or advice are given. It is easy to get the delivery a bit wrong as you say. Less easy to get it wildly off key, accusatory, generalising, dismissing of experience, dismissing of "where someone is at now", dismissing of someone's understanding of their situation, focused totally on personal experience that doesn't resonate with a poster at the point they clearly are in their journey, that point apparently being ignored..... all of which I think can be seen on a range of estrangement threads and which I think are often the source of further misunderstandings, misinterpretations, arguments, problems and general derailing.

It is also, on such a sensitive subject, so easy to take things personally. I still tend to focus on what is being said rather than the poster, although I find that it is the same posters that I want to comment to, because I find their posts interesting, relevant, I agree/disagree and want to discuss/clarify or whatever.

I don't think people "get over it" in terms of trauma. I do think different people find different ways to live with it, as demonstrated on these estrangement and other threads.

It would be good if things could move forward positively on estrangement discussions without the repeating problems

I mentioned before that each estrangement (and reconciliation for that matter) stands alone, that there can be sympathy for all sides from all of us

I agree Pantglas. I think that there can be sympathy, understanding, sharing of views and experiences in a way that each can use to help them in their journey.

I have seen "critical friend" style posts on GN that have really helped a poster to consider their own part in a difficulty that they are experiencing, have helped them to clarify their thinking, decide on next steps etc. EPs who have taken well given, kindly but honest advice from EACs. EACs who have taken well given, kindly but honest advice from EPs. Hard messages can be given in a way that enables someone to hear and to use advice constructively.

At the same time, with the pain that all who are estranged suffer, sometimes someone just needs someone to understand how they are feeling, to know others are in the same position. And that's ok too.

Have you noticed a common formula for how some threads derail madgran? I mentioned recently elsewhere that being forced to justify myself meant the thread becoming off topic and I see that happening often.

If we are able to communicate that others should let comments stand instead of forcing justification or more detailed explanation... Perhaps it would be more successful and wouldn't lead to a total change in tone.

I dont think either of us has much chance though lol

I still think the route of the issue is "sides", I wouldn't usually come here anymore, realising that perhaps for this thread, my experiences aren't appropriate for the majority of estranged parents using it. I know it is open to me, but I don't feel it's the right thing to do. On this occasion I just hoped I might be heard as this thread shows a concerted effort to keep things friendly (usually).

We are individuals, there simply shouldn't be "sides". (although respecting individual safe spaces might help avoid conflict).

"Sides" is the route of the issue in my opinion. That and, you can't convince someone a shovel is not an axe by chopping their legs off with it. If you want to change someones opinion, shouting at them just doesn't work. Proving yourself with patience and kindness has a better chance.

If we are able to communicate that others should let comments stand instead of forcing justification or more detailed explanation... Perhaps it would be more successful and wouldn't lead to a total change in tone

I suppose there is a fine line between the above and seeking clarification. "Letting comments stand" could potentially be a shutdown I suppose, but again its a fine line isn't it.

If you want to change someone's opinion, shouting at them just doesn't work

That is very true and brings me back to what I said in my earlier comment. It isn't even necessarily about "changing someone's opinion". Just about having a discussion without derailment, for a variety of reasons mentioned previously.

It is a pity that "sides" seems to have become an issue; I think Pantglas's wise comment: I mentioned before that each estrangement (and reconciliation for that matter) stands alone, that there can be sympathy for all sides from all of us sums it up perfectly

Yes it is a pity Madgran isn't it. Seems to have been an ongoing issue for a long time from what I have read...

Anyway I will leave it there so we don't end up in circles.

Have a good weekend

Circles ...Like the Oozelum Bird! -

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Yogagirl

I'm too old for mumsnet.

I do have compassion and understanding for grandparents who can't see their grandchildren unfairly.

Estrangement is for estrangement, not estranged grandparents only. Not all older people estranged by a child are grandparents. Sometimes the parents estrange the child. There is more than one angle to estrangement.

I don't upset anyone who reads my comments properly and I have made huge efforts over the time here to keep my language inclusive.

Perhaps you could do the same?

The only thing I see as possibly upsetting is my saying that abusive parents/grandparents exist in higher numbers than anyone (including myself) wants to believe.... But that's just the truth. Its an upsetting concept for all of us. It's heartbreaking in fact. Society seems to accept the younger generations can be abusive but not the older too. Society seems to accept that men can be abusive but not women too.

I don't really know what else to say to you really. I have every right to be here and if the fact I was abused by a parent upsets others then, maybe imagine how much it upset me.

Empathy works both ways and I ha e genuine empathy for broken relationships and would like to help fix them ifi can, even if my own seems broken beyond repair.

I was thinking about the Oozelum bird too Madgran and wondering if I'd suddenly been transported to an alternative universe, as the majority of what's being posted here is, as I posted yesterday, conspicuous by its absence on the majority of the estrangement threads.

I hope this weekend goes well PF for you all and that you're not too nervous or anxious to enjoy seeing your family together once againx

Madgran I forgot to point out its Oozlum bird, not Oozelum. Pretty good metaphor for abusive people who just fly around in ever decreasing circles without realising that there are people with the foresight and intelligence to see them clearly before they erm... Vanish out of their victims lives for good.

Hi all, sorry been feeling rather low and fragile for various reasons not connected to estrangement but it's left me feeling like I really can't focus on that as well right now. Have done some reading and am thinking of you all.

Can I just say that every so often things get a bit heated. This is understandable to an extent, feelings run high on both sides. But I find it really unhelpful when I see people reacting in anger to things from other threads. Which I haven't read. Can we at least keep our arguments to specific topics we disagree on within the thread where that comes up?

Hope that doesn't sound bossy, Sorry again.

Take care all. x

Oh is it Starblaze ..random "e" was added in my head!?

G

Hugshelp really sorry you are having a rubbish time. Just coming out of one myself. Really hope things get better for you soon and you are able to come post a bit more

Sending hugs and your way hugshelp

hugshelp sorry if you are having a hard time

Thank you all, just knowing you're all there helps. A lot. If I can't pull myself out of this fug soon I'll start me a thread and see if some wise old heads can give me a hand working things out, just mulling things over a bit atm.

Sorry you've been struggling youself Starblaze - glad you're coming out the other side.

Gransnet seems only to delete the post from EGP that have been posting for near 8yrs on this support page, the AC doing the estrangement & saying the most upsetting things to us are left to say whatever they like. Why is that GNHQ? This forum is called Gransnet for grandparents. Mumsnet is a forum for mums, which I wouldn't post on as not applicable to me & not aimed at grandparents, as Gransnet is not aimed at mums. So I asked why mums are posting on this support page for grandparents & not on mumsnet aimed at & for them, with like minded mums that would support what they are saying, unlike on here. No sensible answer! So we are left to wonder WHY? What do you get out of it?

Madgran As said before, your & other non co'd posters are welcome and their comments are interesting to us estranged GP, as are those from sympathetic AC who have empathy for us on this support page & have some positive input. But Madgran you do seem to support the estranging AC on here.

But Madgran you do seem to support the estranging AC on here

I am bemused as to how you draw that conclusion from recent conversations I had on a range of threads recently Yogagirl. Like many posters I see on GN I dont specifically support EAC or EPs as an homogenous group as each case is different, each individual is different. I tend to focus on what is being said rather than individual posters, although ofcourse I am aware of a posters context if they have chosen to share that.

Anyway, neither of us have to justify our reasons for posting really and I think this must be boring and uncomfortable for people on this support thread so I will leave it there

Madgran77

*But Madgran you do seem to support the estranging AC on here*

I am bemused as to how you draw that conclusion from recent conversations I had on a range of threads recently Yogagirl. Like many posters I see on GN I dont specifically support EAC or EPs as an homogenous group as each case is different, each individual is different. I tend to focus on what is being said rather than individual posters, although ofcourse I am aware of a posters context if they have chosen to share that.

Anyway, neither of us have to justify our reasons for posting really and I think this must be boring and uncomfortable for people on this support thread so I will leave it there

Absolutely nothing to add to that.

Except "none of us" instead of "neither of us"

Brilliant

PF hope your weekend get together is going well

Looks as if we're both in the same boat hugshelp.

Back home from our lodge and with 2 of my cousins arriving tomorrow for mum's funeral on Tuesday I've got a lot to do but all I want to do is go to sleep.

But I have to go shopping, do some baking and get myself organised.

Thinking about you PF; hope all is well.