The 'Perception Filter'...

Smileless -- You don't see the relevance that Estranged Parents self report that they have been called toxic/Narcissistic by their children?

The relevance is, IF EP's know that is what their 'kids' think of them that should be the 'clue' as to why the estrangement occurred. The parent doesn't have to AGREE but if they don't and refuse to examine why their child would say that... Well, that's it in a nutshell.

The child is saying -- "This relationship is 100% not working for Me. Can we meet half-way?" And there is no "half-way" to be found so No Contact is the only avenue left.

So EP's crying, "I don't know why I'm estranged!" is kinda silly when many of those same EP's will also report, "My kid told me I was a toxic Narcissist." There's your "answer". Your child estranged because they think you are abusive.

I remember when it all broke down with my mum, stepdad and brother, that there were many cries that I was "mentally ill" and that nothing I was talking about ever happened.

OK yes I have been mentally ill with depression and anxiety but not the kind of mentally ill they claimed I was.

Now, if you are speaking to someone you genuinely believe is mentally ill, should you be:

1. Furious and swearing and telling them they are cruel, nasty, will never amount to anything and you are ashamed of them and you want nothing to do with them. Telling them that they absolutely should not see a therapist or get any support because the support will only hear their side of the story?

2. Patiently explain to them that you love them, you would never do anything to hurt them deliberately but you are wiling to listen to how they feel and make changes to help them feel better in future. (with possible thoughts about actual mental health support of course).

Spoiler Alert, 1 is my immediate families response. It led to a nervous breakdown.

It all boils down to the fact that parental accountability and responsibility is a direct result of choosing to have children-

The decision is yours as is all that comes with it-

Having said that, when estrangement occurs, a parent cannot suddenly rescind their decision to have kids, or sever themselves from outcomes related to their initial decision-

When a parent thinks that nothing they did didn't influence their child's decisions, it's an illusion and not a fact-

A fact that once deeply considered and understood doesn't default to illusion and assigning blame but moves towards solutions-

Madgran, I think all of his books are fascinating- I love his pattern of presenting facts all while shifting his perception of those facts over time instead of being rigid- Which is awesome because he keeps his audience scrambling rather than following all while exploring the facts- He's fun-

And who are you Starblaze to give me many opportunities to move past it and move on considering the part you played.

Thank you MissA as you've posted, some of the things that were said were both disgusting and foul. I have not forgotten them or those who were responsible for saying them.

rosecarmel you are so right, when you argue with someone you love and get into "who is more at fault" how can it ever be resolved? The important thing is how to change things for the future.

Oh no, no, no MotherofDragon's I have never said that was the reason for our estrangement, because it wasn't

You said that following a terrible row, things were still tense, but that your ES promised you he would not cut contact with your grandson. You said that you then went on holiday and by the time you came back, he had blocked you.

You said that he then met up with his father, after much persuading, that the meeting lasted for a few hours and that he spent that entire time telling lies about you. Lies that he had already told his older brother.

I have never said I never apologise, what I have said is I wont apologise for something I haven't said or done

Please show me where I said you said you never apologise! I didn’t say that. I say that you refused to apologise to your son because you felt you had nothing to apologise for. You have even said that your older son had a falling out with you because he couldn’t understand why you wouldn’t apologise to his brother.

You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you

I’m really not Smileless. Perhaps you should go back and read your old posts, it is easily done.

So, unable to refute the fact that even though for 7 years I've been describing our ES's wife's coercive behaviour, but not using that specific label, you are now 'recalling' something I have never said

You haven’t described any coercive behaviour over 7 years. None. Whether that specific label was used or not. I provided a list of behaviours that would be considered controlling and coercive. Here they are again:

• Deprivation of basic needs, such as food.
• Monitoring his time.
• Monitoring him via online communication tools or spyware.
• Taking control over aspects of his everyday life, such as where he can go, who he can see, what he can wear and when he can sleep.
• Depriving him access to support services, such as medical services.
• Repeatedly putting him down, such as saying he is worthless.
• Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising him.
• Controlling his finances.
• Making threats or intimidating him.

You’ve never mentioned anything like this on GNs over the past 7 years.

I don’t know what else to say to you Smileless, you keep trying to tell me I’m wrong, but it is your words I am reading. And they do not match what you are saying now.

I have not forgotten them or those who were responsible for saying them

No, I bet you haven’t.

But you have no problem forgetting what you and your friends (Yogagirl, for example) say. In fact, you just pretend like it never happened.

TBH I'd prefer it if you didn't say anything else to me MotherofDragons. Maybe I should be flattered that you appear to take such an interest in my story but I'm finding it rather tedious so wont be responding to you again.

Maybe I should be flattered that you appear to take such an interest in my story but I'm finding it rather tedious so wont be responding to you again

I’m uncomfortable not responding to your last comment, so I will.

Please don’t be flattered. I don’t have any particular interest in your story specifically, but I refuse to allow you to try and gaslight me.

I know what you have said in the past, I remember what you have said in the past, I’m not going to permit you to tell me that I’m imagining it or that I’m mistaken. I’m not making anything up Smileless and it has taken me seconds to go back and find it.

I missed your comment Smileless I apologised exactly for my part and noone else's.

I am genuinely sorry for my behaviour then, as I told you then, you were reminding me of my mum with the way you were pulling up everything I said and reversing it, then continuing to do so when I asked you to stop. That's not an excuse and I have since worked on my defensiveness as I said I would then.

To clarify though, I still do not agree with reversing statements instead of a just understanding the person's feelings, them saying they were abused is not an insult to any parent who is not abusive.

Again, I never said anything truly nasty to you, those posters were banned I believe as they were violating rules. I have had maybe 1 comment removed my whole time here. I simply told you how you were making me feel with that behaviour and why I was having a strong reaction to it. My feelings didn't matter enough to you for you to stop doing what you knew was pushing my buttons.

Anyway, I know you need the last word and you are welcome to have it, it's just a shame you won't listen to me, I am the one who knows how I think and how I feel.

I would be very glad not to be in touch with an estranged child if they were constant hammering home the same point until you wearily submit to their view point. The year after year listening to it would be like a prison sentence.
Smileless I have heard your story, I know how devastated you were and it must have taken courage to start again. I wouldn’t try justifying your reasons to people that just twist everything. I won’t be commenting on this particular post, but like banging your head on a brick wall.

Sparkling Now THAT was passive aggression. I sure those of us estranged children who receive unwanted contact wish our mums agreed with you.

Not at all akin to saying basically “I don't disagree with what you are saying but why does it not apply to everyone“

Thank you Sparkling yes it took courage to start again and I think a degree of bloody mindedness and determination to make the most of our lives.

Hi Motherofdragons

That is a summary list of coercive behaviour that I have seen too. It always strikes me that having them listed separately presumably for clarity can be misleading as of course the behaviours are not separate entities, and influence the same outcomes. The list can give the impression that each behaviour is separate from the others.

For instance "Who they see" might be stopping a victim seeing friends; or family; or specific family members; or specific friends.

This one might be achieved using :

*Repeatedly putting him down, such as saying he is worthless.
* Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising him.
*Making threats or intimidating him.

* Monitoring his time might also be supported by the above and also by:
*Monitoring him via online communication tools or spyware

•Those are just a couple of examples.

In the context of an EP describing those behaviours (and I am not referring to anyone specific here), I think it likely that they will be describing the impact of the behaviours from their perspective ie estrangement ...partly because they may well not know the detail of what behaviours have created the situation. They just know the impact from their perspective and presumably what they have observed in the lead up to the estrangement.

On that subject I am not sure whether you are UK based? If you are, have you been watching the storyline on Coronation Street. It was an interesting interpretation of coercive control and of persuading the victim to believe things about themselves and others. A difficult subject and I found it interesting to watch how it developed gradually over time.

Was that a recent story line Madgran? I stopped watching Coronation Street a few years ago when they were doing the story about Tyrone and his abusive partner. We were in the early months of our estrangement and I found it rather uncomfortable viewing, and haven't watched it since.

Yes *Smileless ...Geoff and Yasmeen. It has developed over about a year. At the moment Yasmeen is in prison accused of trying to murder Geoff who is still manipulating evidence etc.

What I found interesting was watching the gradual subtle strategies utilised by the Geoff character and the impact on Yasmeen who arrived on the street as a confident powerful personality. An interesting fictional interpretation.

I watched a good friend's marriage break down, at the beginning I supported their marriage, after estranging my mum and getting help to understand her behaviour I could then see my friend was being abused. Once you learn to see it, it's just obvious. My friend did not see it until years later. Yes my friend could and did during the divorce process list examples of those different types of behaviour as she was asked. They over lap of course but she needed examples of each.

My friends mum was an alcoholic, we talked a lot about our mums over the years. Her mum drank herself to death so even though she helped me to estrange and thought my mum was awful, she couldn't see her mum as abusive. In counselling she was shocked the counsellor wanted to talk about her mum so much. In order to recover fully, the abuse received before her marriage had to be addressed so she could avoid past patterns. It's been a devastating few years for my friend but she is so much happier and healthier now.

It sounds both interesting and well researched Madgran. I remember how confident and loving our ES used to be. It's tragic to know how much he's changed.

The strategies they employ may be subtle but are no less frightening and destructive.

"What would it take to end the NC? An admission of the abuse; acceptance of responsibility for the abuse; an apology and a commitment to family therapy perhaps?" Well maybe Pallas, if our ES was to do all of the aforementioned there may be a chance of ending the NC but not necessarily."

So according to you Smileless your son was abusive toward you. Now your story is he is in an abusive relationship. Do you see why some are having trouble believing your narrative?

"Our ES and his wife are our abusers and their weapon of choice is their deafening silence and their refusal to allow their children to know their paternal GP's and us to know them."

"It took me two years to understand that the only way I could be safe was to remain NC with our son. He almost destroyed me, and there's no way I could risk contact with him again."

So yes. Your narrative on why you are estranged has flipped. Trying to gaslight MotherofDragons by saying your story has not changed is inaccurate at best and a lie at worst.

Which is it? Was he abusive to you or a victim of his abusive wife?

Sparkling -- You said, "Most of the grandparents on here are not abusers by any means."

"Most" is not all. And how is anyone supposed to tell which parents/grandparents are likely to be the abusive ones when EVERY estranged parent claims little to no part of their contribution to being estranged? I submit that the way to 'tell' is by their actions and behaviors and words/language they use.

Anywhere where EP's congregate there is bound to be abusive ones that are getting the 'rewards' of their 'questionable parenting' -- being cut off.

Now, how many fall into which "category" is what is up for debate. There are many "red flags" on what dysfunctional thinkers/abusers say/act like and they are all well documented.

So you've reprinted what I've posted in the past, not because you want to further the discussion on this thread or any discussion on estrangement, but to attempt to reinforce your view that my story has changed; well it hasn't changed HolyHannah.

I've always said that our estrangement is due to our ES's wife's manipulative and controlling behaviour. Manipulating and controlling another person is abuse.

Yes, our son was abusive toward us in writing and verbally. He and his wife continue to abuse us, to cause us pain by denying us contact with our GC.

He almost destroyed me, and there's no way I could risk contact with him again.

I pity you HolyHannah. Those words came from the heart, a heart that was broken. If I saw those words written by an EAC I wouldn't dream of trying to use them against them, to further my own agenda, to try and discredit another poster just because they're opinions differ from my own. To attempt to gaslight the person who'd written them.

He's both; he's in an abusive relationship with his wife and he has, and continues to abuse us and his wider family. His GM, who still lives a few doors closer to them than we did, still occasionally sees him walk past her living room window, with her GGC who she doesn't know.

I don't know if after so many years of being controlled and manipulated, he's aware that that is what his life has become. If having lost his family, apart from occasional contact with his brother, and friends he'd had since childhood, if he still feels the way he did when he told his wife he'd given everything up for her.

As any reasonably intelligent person can see, the two are not mutually exclusive. An adult can be in an abusive relationship and abusive.

Honestly, aspects of my thoughts about my relationship probably change over time as I gain new knowledge, new insight and new language to express myself. I wouldn't be surprised if emotions like anger and frustration have impacted what I said or for times I have seized onto possibilities and later discarded them in my journey to fully understand myself and that relationship. Not everything that is said has to stand forever but of you try to make it, for appearances, it will probably cause some damage somewhere.

If your saying it's wrong to make everything you've ever said stand forever for appearances, I agree. There's no shame in changing your mind and/or regretting something you said in the past.

That said there's nothing wrong with standing by what you've said in the past, not for the sake of appearance, but because for you, nothing's changed. Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you've said to do so is wrong Starblaze.

Smileless, please cease to respond to Holy Hannah, she plays the victim and turns everything you say to suit her, it is bullying. I know you are more than able to stick up for yourself but trying to justify yourself to someone with her mindset is just a waste of energy. The comments you made concerning the way you were nearly destroyed, any person with a speck of humanity would feel for you. I am not estranged but I have empathy for those that are, I know I can never feel as you do completely, but it could happen to any one of us, things can turn on a sixpence, non of us can be complac,.nt. you have to wonder about the children of such people with such bitterness in their hearts, they are to be pitied. It’s hard times for all of us. God bless.