The 'Perception Filter'...

Oh well a bit of embarrassment isnt the end of the world.

Smileless -- Your perspective seems to be, all parents that are estranged are blameless victims. You seem to believe/accept without question, any excuse/justification that an EP gives that doesn't involve any personal responsibility on the part of the parent(s).

What people fail to grasp is, abusers/dysfunctional thinkers all say and use the same techniques to control/manipulate their victims.

There is an entire unit at the US FBI that studies behavior. They are called the Behavioral Analysis Unit. They use multiple tools to do that job.

One is linguistic analysis. They look at what people say, how they say it and can make determinations on their behavior based on that.

How can they do that job if there is no patterns in behavior to analyse?

A while ago here on GN there was a thread about "The Brainwashing of going No Contact" and most EP's agreed that all EAC sound the same. Does it not stand to reason that if parents can see that most EAC say the same things (whether they are being honest or not) the same cannot be seen in reverse?

So, if I learned all the ways my own 'mom' was abusive, through counselling and therapy, it becomes easy to see those same behaviors in others who are displaying them. I would be swinging back around to dysfunctional thinking/behavior IF I was seeing that behavior when it wasn't present.

Patterns of behavior don't change/are not 100% unique from person to person/situation to situation -- otherwise Profilers wouldn't be able to do their jobs.

Again, one of the things that dysfunctional personalities exhibit is that they believe they are exceptional and unique, that how they behave is somehow 'different' and therefore no one should be able to see through them.

Sparkling -- I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. No one can convince anyone, especially dysfunctional thinkers, that they are adding 2 + 2 and arriving at 5 as being the 'wrong answer'. What I can do is point out where I see people behaving in certain ways, highlight it and explain the behavior with context. What you or anyone chooses to believe/do with the information is up to them.

Talking to Strangers by Gladwell is an interesting read- What I like about him as an author is that while he relies on research that's been thoroughly established and proven he isn't frightened to change his perception and as a result his mind about his own observations of it- But the subjects he writes about do not change throughout-

I think that's a normal, healthy pattern for a person who wishes to continue to change and learn and share what he discovers about particular subjects with others- His insistence isn't to convince but to get the reader to at the very least reflect and take what been determined about psychology seriously-

"Talking to Strangers" ..thanks for reference. Will have a look at it.

HolyHannah, I think I explained what I meant. Most of the grandparents on here are not abusers by any means. Somewhere along the line things went wrong and unfortunately it takes both sides to want the same outcome, most have tried to sort things out before becoming estranged, can you imagine how that must be for them? To lose their child and grandchildren. I know that one day these grandchildren will break the cycle when they are free speaking adults and make their own unbiased decisions. Everyone is at some time guilty of a thoughtless comment,but don't judge unless you want to want to be be judged, that comment is enough to start a rift for some people, those with a personality disorder or mental illness can take such a comment out of all context, so can a very manipulating partner that can be jealous of their partners love for their parents. It's a story as old as the hills..You were abused, you have said that many, many times, you say you have moved on and are comfortable with your decisions. I was querying why if that was the case you don't seem to enjoy the peace and keep revisiting and justifying what you did. No one is denying there are very damaged parents out there who treat their children appallingly. That is not the case for the majority of esteangement. To generalise and say it is always fault, not so, I have seen myself how children can go off the rails, it can be who they make friends with or have a relationship with.

Should have read, to generalise and say estrangement is down to bad parenting is wrong.

"That is not the case for the majority of estrangement"

Sparkling That perception is wrong, that perception is why so many parents are getting away with abusing their own children and that is why some EAC will keep fighting to be heard. To prevent damaging opinions like that preventing abused children getting help.

Not at all HolyHannah I'm not a fool, I know as we all do that there are some cruel and abusive parents out there. It goes without saying that you're not going to have an EP here on GN say they've been estranged by their AC because they abused them and made their childhood hell, anymore then an EAC is going to say their parents gave them a secure and happy childhood, but they just don't want a relationship with them anymore, so have estranged them.

It has nothing to do with failing to grasp how abusive/dysfunctional people operate and the manipulative and controlling techniques they use. We know how they work, our ES is married to one for goodness sake.

What I don't do, is tell an EP or and EAC that I don't believe them; that was said to me on this thread. I remember that thread and yes of course it stands to reason that if the majority can see EAC saying the same thing, it's reasonable for EAC to see the majority of EP's saying the same thing.

The issue I have is the constant 'AC don't walk away from good parents', there's no smoke without fire, the dismissing of the relevance of third party involvement, and on that particular thread from some, the refusal to accept that brainwashing can and does exist, and be a cause of estrangement.

If I see a post from an EP that for me raises questions, I ask those questions but I do so in a polite and considered manner.
I don't, as I've seen here on GN post you need counselling/therapy, typed in upper case to 'shout' at the poster I'm responding too.

You started this thread, 'The Perception Filter'. All of our filters are affected to a greater or lesser degree by our own experiences. If the EP's perception is going to be aggressively questioned, as has happened on this thread, treated with scorn and in one case disbelieved, what was the point of starting this thread here on GN? EP's and EGP's read and post here.

If you don't want to hear or know about their experiences, and that's the impression I get from you and others, though I maybe wrong, why start this thread and some of the others you've started here on GN, where it's obvious you're going to get feed back from EP's and EGP's, who don't appear to be your target audience?

What I don't do, is tell an EP or and EAC that I don't believe them; that was said to me on this thread

Yes, I said that to you. But you seem to have glossed over why that was.

I have been reading these threads for years and your account of your estrangement has changed so significantly that you may as well be a new poster with an entirely different experience.

If I see a post from an EP that for me raises questions, I ask those questions but I do so in a polite and considered manner

Your post saying that you believe your son to be in a coercive and controlling relationship raised questions for me, so I asked you why you thought that, as you have never indicated this before, nor have you been in touch with your ES for you to now have these concerns. You certainly didn’t when you first started posting here.

You refused to answer my question. In fact, you then said that my questioning this new information was ”to satisfy some deep seated dissatisfaction in their own lives”. No, your post simply raised questions which were too significant to ignore, given your prominence as a poster on estrangement for just over 7 years. That is when I concluded that you were not being truthful.

You said yourself “I'm not a fool”, so you must understand why an older member of GNs would wish clarification on your sudden change of story.

I mean it’s all there, on pages 3 and 4 of this thread.

There's been no sudden change of story. I've always talked about our ES's wife's manipulative and controlling behaviour which is what coercive behaviour is. I don't know whose posts you've been reading for years but mine have always spoken of our estrangement being due to our ES's wife. One can, as I have done, talk about coercive behaviour without using the specific label.

It doesn't matter why you said you don't believe me, why without actually using the word liar, that's what you called me. I have never and would never do such a thing to another poster.

I referred to coercive behaviour being an offence, now enshrined in law as there was a poster who was disputing the fact that an adult can be controlled and manipulated by another.

While spending years reading these threads, did you not post or did you post under another name as the first time I recall seeing you on GN was toward the end of last year? I could be wrong but I don't remember seeing your 'name' before that and MotherofDragons isn't one that's easy to forget.

Yes, it's all there on pages 3 and 4 of this thread, the conversation I was having with Norah which clearly demonstrates why I used the term coercive behaviour, a controlling and manipulative partner, something I've been talking about for years.

If I talk about a large herbivore, that predominantly eats grass, produces milk, also provides meat for us to eat and is mated with a bull, do I have to use the word cow so you know what I'm talking about?

Smileless This isn't me disagreeing with you but I have to ask you again, why don't you hold estranged parents to the same rules you hold estranged children to?

You are literally the first to pull up estranged children for saying anything you even mildly don't like.

You even pull up estranged children for not saying things ie: EAC: "some parents are abusive" Smileless "Some children are abusive!". Which actually detracts from the pain they have been through which is why I don't do that to estranged parents here. I thought about reversing everything estranged parents say to prove a point but actually it's just cruel. It is also very WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEE.

Why do you happily pull up estranged children but don't pull up Yogagirl for laughing and joking about another member who ended up depressed and Left?

Its why I don't trust you at your word.

There's been no sudden change of story. I've always talked about our ES's wife's manipulative and controlling behaviour which is what coercive behaviour is. I don't know whose posts you've been reading for years but mine have always spoken of our estrangement being due to our ES's wife

Smileless, you having problems with your ES’s wife, and your ES siding with her, and also raising issues of his own, does not mean your ES is a victim of domestic abuse. And if I recall correctly, you said your estrangement was caused by an argument between you all and your refusal to apologise, because you didn’t feel you had anything to apologise for.

It doesn't matter why you said you don't believe me, why without actually using the word liar, that's what you called me. I have never and would never do such a thing to another poster

Of course it matters why I said I don’t believe you. I didn’t just call you a liar for no reason. Your posts raised questions for me, which I asked you. You chose not to answer, which is fine, but after following your story for all these years, the changes are too much for me to just blindly accept. I said “I think you are lying”, which I believe you are. If there is a better way you think I could or should express that, please let me know.

the first time I recall seeing you on GN was toward the end of last year? I could be wrong

You’re not wrong. I had to create a new account because of a privacy concern. However, I have never posted consistently under either username.

And if you believed your son to be in a domestically abusive relationship, then I can’t understand why you would speak or why you spoke about him in such a callous way.

You have referred to him on here as your nasty son. You have said that you wouldn’t reconcile with him in the future because of all he has done to you. You don’t appear to have attempted to help him in any way.

It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

No, it doesn't mean he is a victim of domestic abuse but, in our opinion he has been and continues to be controlled and manipulated by his wife.

Oh no, no, no MotherofDragon's I have never said that was the reason for our estrangement, because it wasn't. I have never said I never apologise, what I have said is I wont apologise for something I haven't said or done. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you.

So, unable to refute the fact that even though for 7 years I've been describing our ES's wife's coercive behaviour, but not using that specific label, you are now 'recalling' something I have never said.

That explains it then, I'd have I'm sure remembered your name if I'd seen it before the end of last year as I'm an avid 'Game of Thrones' fan.

That's a bit rich coming from you isn't it Starblaze, especially the "WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEE" reference. I'm sure I have been remiss on occasion on not picking up on something an EP said too or about an EAC, but really who are you to even mention it.

You don't defend EP's, on the contrary you join in when one's receiving a metaphorical kicking from others.

The poster you keep referring too posted here on GN, not long before she decided to leave, that she had found it helpful rising to some of the more challenging discussions here.

When you came back to GN in January you took it upon yourself to 'sympathise' with her because she was being bullied, despite her telling you she was OK and would make her own opinion.

How many times have you laughed with your lol's and made jokes of things I have posted? Or does the fact that you haven't succeeded in bullying me away from GN, mean it doesn't matter.

Yogagirl didn't bully her off the site, she only made a couple of references to her posts. I on the other hand, despite us not always being in agreement, had some informative and sensible discussions with her.

That's not the conversation we had in private Smileless she didn't want me to get involved for my sake, she didn't want people to start on me for defending her.

I laugh at you when you twist the past, I laugh when you make ridiculous assertions and I laugh at the fact that I truly thought we had a good relationship until one small misunderstanding had you turn on me. I apologised for the misunderstanding. I apologised for being defensive and I apologised for being rude to you. I have apologised to you eV ry time I misunderstood something you said or got a piece of I formation wrong.

You have never apologised to me.

Bullies never apologise.

Besides, I don't want you to leave, the place wouldn't be the same without you and occasionally I am very interested in your comments lol

I actually remember clearly saying to you back then that there was room for how we both felt. That I hadn't meant to cause you any strife but you had really hurt my feelings. There were streams of me trying very hard to explain to you on multiple threads. You however had decided I was the villain in your victim story and refused to listen. I am not and never have been responsible for your arguments with others and I will not be scapegoat for your anger towards them.

I'm an honest person and people will either believe me or they won't, it doesn't matter really.

Well as you don't trust me at my word Starblaze I'm sure you'll understand why I don't trust you at yours.

You passive aggressive "This isn't me disagreeing with you" just doesn't wash with me. You're almost right; it isn't that bullies never apologise, it's just that when they do they do so without sincerity or integrity.

"I have never said I never apologise, what I have said is I wont apologise for something I haven't said or done. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you."

The thread on 'Going No Contact' had a lot of EP's reporting that their AC had called them Narcissistic/toxic/abusive etc. And if you do research on what EAC mean when they say that, lo and behold you'll find that one big complaint is:

My parent never apologizes... EVER

And gosh golly, the next thing those same 'kids' report is that when they ask/tell the parent they believe they are owed an apology the 'parent' immediately falls back to, "I haven't done ANYTHING that requires an apology."

And as a side-note... Commenting on a person's language, syntax, grammar etc. is another form of ad hominem attack. It's the, "I don't like what you are saying so I'll attack how you are saying 'it'." thing.

So was that research done on the EAC of EP's who posted on the 'Going No Contact' thread? If not, I don't see the relevance. And of course, if an EAC says My parent never apologizes... EVER they just have to be believed don't they.

I have given you so many opportunities to move past it and move on Smileless. You accuse me of wanting to carry it on when I just want you to listen.

There is nothing passive aggressive in anything I've said to you today. Maybe that's the perception you need so that you don't feel guilty for your behaviour. So yes, that's why I don't trust your word. By my experience, twisting things, putting 100% of the blame on me... How could I possibly?

And none of you feel guilty about your behaviour towards smileless a while back??

There were some disgusting, foul things said.
I hope there is never a repeat of that.