The 'Perception Filter'...

@yorkie - my sympathies to you. It is heart breaking and my situation is very similar to yours.

My DD met someone at university and gradually distanced from/cut off all of her family and friends. He took over every aspect of her life and wanted to be with her 24/7. She took me on a weekend break and he was in contact all the time, constantly texting, calling etc.

DD is now married to the BF, now my SIL, and has two adorable children. She did not tell us about the marriage or about her first DC until she was 14 months old. She finds joy in her children but she doesn't see anyone outside the house, apart from her parents in law. Lockdown has not affected her, as her life is the same as before, as she told me.

Anyway, what I meant to say is that your DD was very young, even younger than mine, when she estranged, but now we are reconciled with our DD (although she is till estranged from her sisters and friends). She is in touch on a daily basis and the love has not died, although it is taking and will take me a long time to come to terms with it all. Baby steps, as they say.

I think sometimes our DC need to step away from us to find themselves and we just have to accept it and let them go, agonising though it is, in the. hope and expectation that they will come back, as I am sure that your DD will, in time.

Smileless, I think you are very brave and patient to keep returning to this thread!

To reply to Holy.....My daughter moved out of home (no arguments) and moved in with boyfriend when she was in her early 20's.
I expected her to 'fly' from the nest at some point. I think its healthy for children to leave home when the time is right for them.
They have been married now for 14 years. Happily? Ive no idea as we have had no contact for most of that time. I have tried to talk to/meet her but her now husband makes sure she doesnt have the time (they have their own business). He makes sure that they are always busy elsewhere. You would have to know him to understand his behaviour I think.
My husband didnt realise what was happening back then, but I kept quiet about things and it was only when I pointed certain things out that he agreed that there appeared to be a lot of control from her partner.
So daughter is now almost 42 years old, married, no children as far as I know. I havnt seen her for over 10 years. I have tried to build some bridges with no success.

As always, a lovely thoughtful post PF. I hadn't realised that your D's life outside of the family, which includes his parents, was still being restricted by your s.i.l. It's good to know that she finds joy in her children and that you remain in constant contact.

I'm so sorry for your situation yorkie and know how painful it can be. Even when we witness it first hand, it's still difficult to comprehend just how controlling and manipulative some can be with their partners.

PS I've pm'd you PF

PetiteFromage and Yorkie I am so sorry for your difficult situations and I am glad you still hold the doors open for your daughters as hard as it must be.

@yorkie - I am so sorry. Do you have any other children? Is she in touch with any other family members? Was it a phased withdrawal or did she just leave and that was it? In any event, it all sounds terribly upsetting.

Thanks you Smile and Star for your posts.

Wishing everybody a sunny day

Hoping you have a sunny day too PF.

PetitFromage said -- Hannah, my dear, it is obvious from your threads and your posts that you are in a lot of pain. Families can be complicated and the scars can run deep and be difficult to heal, whether you are an EP or an EAC.

I don't have any answers, but I do believe that forgiveness is better for your own peace of mind, if you can manage it - and I know that it is not always easy.

I don't know your circumstances but, please, if the past has been miserable, don't let it spoil your future too. Try to come to terms with what is, or what has been, and set yourself free.

Perception can view this comment two ways...

It is a genuine attempt to comfort and sound caring.

OR

The other perception, when hearing the opener of "Hannah, my dear..." is to think anything that follows might be condescending/biased and/or inaccurate.

"it is obvious from your threads and your posts that you are in a lot of pain." -- I am not 'in pain' the way I was before getting healthy.

"if the past has been miserable, don't let it spoil your future too. Try to come to terms with what is, or what has been, and set yourself free." -- I've already done all that.

"I do believe that forgiveness is better for your own peace of mind, if you can manage it..." Forgiveness is good under the right circumstances, but your mention of "if you can manage it" could be construed as you saying I am not able to 'forgive' when it's appropriate.

I grew up in a 'home' where true forgiveness never happened because those demanding the apologies were the abuser(s) looking for absolution. And as much as I was the perfect little Scapegoat child, I couldn't 'forgive' my mom's abuse ENOUGH to make her feel 'good' about HER.

I think estrangements are usually much more complicated than how a child was raised. Parent blaming needs to stop. There can be so many reasons someone is estranged. When people say, "Oh, it must be because...", I think it's because they are looking for a reason that reassures themselves it can't happen to them.

I also think blaming the spouse of the EAC is altogether wrong. Our adult children make their own decisions, regardless of the input of anyone else in their life. It's not the fault of the spouse at all. If the EAC is influenced by the spouse, it's because they let them.

And what of parents who make the decision to estrange their own child? It happens, even sometimes without the kind of pressing reasons we might understand.

I should add, that's not to say that parenting or third parties can't be a factor, just that it's not always that simple. I never assume why someone is estranged. I am always sure it is multi-factorial and complex.

I agree OceanMama that perhaps some who are quick to blame the parent do so because they can then tell themselves it will never happen to them.

I also agree that our AC make their own decisions but as we all know, there are some controlling and manipulative people out there, and domestic abuse isn't just physical, it can be emotional and financial.

Abusers alienate their 'victim' from close friends and family, making them reliant on them, their abuser, for their emotional and/or practical and financial needs.

I can understand why some may doubt the extent of the influence an AC's partner can have, had we not had personal experience we would I'm sure have felt the same.

Smileless, I don't doubt at all that some partners are indeed controlling and manipulative and are a factor in estrangement at times. That can be but one factor of many and I never make any assumptions about why someone is the way they are, make the decisions they do or about their parents. That is personally and professionally. It's often a complex web of things, people have many influences in their lives of which parents are only one. I am not estranged from my children (and may it stay that way) but I just can't assume the problem is with the parents where it happens. Sure, sometimes that is a big part of it.

Personally, we are estranged from my MIL. My MIL tells everyone it's my fault, people in her circle blame me too. Let them. MIL probably doesn't even know that since we married, every invitation she got to visit came from me, every gift her family got was chosen and organised by me, every phone call she got (even from her son) was encouraged by me. The estrangement still bothers me more than her own son because I would love to have had a relationship with her. Her bitterness eventually drove me to where I just decided to stop trying and let her son handle it. He didn't. She cut us off because we didn't involve her enough, in her eyes.

I hold her responsible for the estrangement but even so, can see there is a lot of complexity to how that played out, but I won't go into details.

Hannah - I can assure you that I did not intend in any way to be condescending and I am very sorry if you thought that I did. I don't know you and I don't have any bias or preconceived views about your situation, but your posts do express a deep pain, for which I am genuinely sorry.

I have had a lot of support from GN for my own estrangement, which I am pleased to say is now at an end, so I just try to support others when I feel that they might find it helpful. I honestly have no axe to grind.

I was not saying that inexcusable actions should be excused, but that is not the same thing as forgiveness. It can be hard to forgive, not just for you but for all of us, and the worse the actions, the harder it is to forgive. I was just saying that, for your own peace of mind, you have to try to forgive her. Not for her sake, but for yours.

I am sending you a genuine, virtual hug.

Yes you're right OceanMama there are many influences in the lives of our AC just as there are in our own lives.

It adds so much more to the discussions here on GN when an open minded approach can be taken, when no one thing is ruled out simply because it doesn't fit with someone's personal experience and/or agenda.

Your posts are always caring, understanding, supportive and above all sincere PF as anyone familiar with them and you will know.

Agree Smileless, it's always best to keep an open mind. Sometimes things are just what they appear on the surface, but often the truth is in the middle or hearing the other side can make things look very different. I find that often differing or unmet expectations often result in estrangement, but that's not to dismiss toxic people or dynamics.

Regardless, people's pain is real and we can support them with that.

Whether you're the one who has estranged or the one whose been estranged, the pain as you say is real OceanMama and all who are in pain deserve and should receive our support.

It makes me think of the saying:

"Crazy people don't think they are going crazy, they think they are getting saner."

~John Locke

If you can keep your head when all about you are loosing theirs...….and blaming it on you...….

Rudyard Kipling.

Ah If. You do it disservice sharing only the first line nams although. About becoming a good man if I remember rightly.

"If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you but make allowances for their doubting too"

In todays times I would take it for male and female, I've always liked If, we should trust ourselves while still empathising with other feelings about us and we should not place importance on appearances. That we should not stoop to low levels of behaviour even if they are done against us. It's a good philosophy.

'O was some pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us
It would frae mony a blunder fee us,
An' foolish notion...…….

Robbi Burns

I will hold my parents accountable indefinitely, and their parents that laid the patterns down before them, however many generations back-

I encourage my children to hold me accountable, to examine inherited patterns, their impact and how they influenced their own decisions-

The way I perceive it, the patterns are dependent upon inequality, stemming from people treating others as less instead of equal in conjunction with people accepting being treated as less for a wide variety of reasons, mainly because they were taught to believe it-

Some filters distort, others are used to remove BS and clarify ..

PetitFromage -- Thankfully without further information, I tend to not choose either meaning. In the context of perception I used your comment as an example of how a person's view is their 'Perception Filter'. I am often accused of not seeing 'both sides' or taking a bias one way or another. I can often take a statement two or even more possible ways... How I choose to perceive a message will obviously mold my reply.

Abusers will often (if not always) find the worst possible interpretation in a situation and run on that as fact. It's part of drama creating behaviors of dysfunctional thinkers.

I believe in the best in people until they give me a reason to feel otherwise.

As for forgiveness, isn't that one of the most loaded parts of estrangement? Who needs to apologize and who needs to forgive whom for what?

I cannot speak for other child abuse survivors but forgiveness where I am concerned is more of towards myself. I forgive Me for not being a 'good enough' child to make my 'mom' happy and I forgive her for throwing me under a bus emotionally. Unless she owns her abuse and sincerely asks for forgiveness and apologizes to both my sister and I for being an abusive bully who took out her life frustrations on innocent children? That I won't forgive. Maybe ever.

Hannah - of course our actions and responses are shaped by our background and upbringing. You and your sister were seriously let down by the person who, above all others, should have kept you safe.

You have nothing to forgive yourself for and your feelings are entirely understandable. You are angry and hurt and a random bunch of strangers on the internet cannot presume to properly advise you, only say what they personally have found to be helpful in overcoming their individual pain - obviously based on their own unique characters and experiences/ 'perception filter'.

I stopped forgiving my mum, it became pointless to keep forgiving behaviour she was not accountable apologetic for. I stopped forgiving by estranging.

I forgive myself for putting up with her behaviour for so long.

I forgive myself for not seeing it sooner, for not understanding that all the things she put me down for were things she caused with her treatment of me.

I forgive myself for exposing my children to a toxic person for so long.

Toxic people rewrite history to make themselves innocent and blameless.
Toxic people care only for appearances, all shame and blame must be placed on another to achieve that.

Toxic people don't think they are toxic because they work hard at convincing themselves and others they are not.

That's why they need a scapegoat.