The 'Perception Filter'...

"I forgive myself for not seeing it sooner.."

This is why I can empathize, although not agree, with the parents that claim they didn't do anything wrong-

They don't see- I didn't either-

As a child I understood that my family was running on a different track than I was a lot of the time- They said things and did things that I instinctively knew could be approached differently- With kindness and love, instead of violence-

But there were other patterns that my child's eyes didn't see, that I was taught, that were imprinted upon me- As a result, I was excessively vulnerable to all kinds of stuff- I couldn't protect myself from what I couldn't see, couldn't protect my children and then them theirs-

I couldn't see, so couldn't be clear about what not to put up with-

Parents often want to be forgiven for what they fail to see- If you were to unpack that one, forgiveness would be missing- Completely- The box would be filled with what they want, there's isn't anything in it for you except a bunch of empty-

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyposaQWnI

01 June 7.44 PetitFromage … Lovely empathetic post. [flowers}

I agree Namsnanny another lovely post PF

Some estranged posters have suffered abusive childhoods and have estranged from their parents as a result. In describing their abusive childhoods, descriptions of what is clearly coercive controlling parenting are given.

Some posters are parents who have been estranged after their AC have found partners...descriptions suggest that the AC are suffering coercive control of some sort. ANYONE can find themselves in a coercive controlling relationship, even remarkably strong and confident people; coercive control creeps up. The response to it creeping up is not necessarily to do with ones childhood parenting and a LOT to do with how clever the controller is at the task of coercion.

Perception might be that estranged parents can't see what they did wrong. That might be the case. Equally it might be that their AC has found themselves in a coercive controlling relationship.

This view is as valid as any other on possible causes of estrangement.

You can't be cautious of something or know what to look for if you aren't taught to-

Granted even the FBI and the CIA make mistakes- But at least they received extensive training-

When you meet people you're basically talking to complete strangers- Without some kind of prior guidance you can easily be taken, for a fool, to be used, manipulated, robbed of who you once were and worse-

"Perception might be that estranged parents can't see what they did wrong. That might be the case. Equally it might be that their AC has found themselves in a coercive controlling relationship" Exactly Madgran.

A coercive controlling relationship happens over time, it's subtle which is why the 'victim' doesn't see what's happening and the extent to which they are being controlled and manipulated.

They're 'encouraged' to distance themselves from and eventually estrange family and friends who if they haven't done so already, may see what's going on and alert the 'victim' to the corrosive nature of the relationship they're in.

If parents offered instruction on being cautious then maybe when their kids enter into a manipulative relationship they would have some prior point of reference to rely on rather than rely upon the word and alerts of family and friends after the fact, at which point the victim would naturally become defensive-

PetitFromage -- "You have nothing to forgive yourself for and your feelings are entirely understandable. You are angry and hurt and a random bunch of strangers on the internet cannot presume to properly advise you, only say what they personally have found to be helpful in overcoming their individual pain - obviously based on their own unique characters and experiences/ 'perception filter'."

Thank you for your reply but you are doing 'it' again. Of course I have/had a lot to forgive myself for. You don't know my life or history as I have shared minimal personal information here. Dismissing what I am telling you as personal fact/truth is disconcerting. I had a LOT to forgive myself for and I did.

I could see from my earliest days that my mothers anger and bitterness was what made our entire 'family'/home dysfunctional/abusive. I was never "allowed" to get angry because anger was an emotion that only 'betters' were "allowed" -- their anger was their justification for their abusive behavior. "If you hadn't made me angry I wouldn't have..." I knew I didn't like being abused (even when I didn't know I was being abused) and I knew I didn't want to make others feel like 'people' made Me feel.

I only ever saw anger (the emotion) as a justification for crappy behavior -- dysfunctional and unhealthy thinking? Yes. You learn what you are raised with as your 'normal'. And since any crappy behavior was punished out of me, I had 'no reason' to be angry. And yes, one should be angry when being abused, but since I only knew something was "wrong" with my 'family' and I was told our 'family' was "normal" -- that gaslighting at work... I had NOTHING to be angry about.

One of the few healthy traits I came out of from my 'family' with was amazing anger management skills. Almost to an unhealthy level... In other words, I have a tendency to NOT "get angry" at stuff I should.

You are angry and hurt -- Please stop telling Me how I feel. My 'mom' wasn't good at it (in fact she was almost always wrong about what I was thinking and feeling) and you are faring little better. You say, "a random bunch of strangers on the internet cannot presume to properly advise you"... Very true and please remind me where I asked for advice.

What you are selling as "genuine concern" is falling more into the 'B' part of my first reply.

Parents don't always know that the relationship their AC is involved with is manipulative. The manipulation occurs over time.

You can start to see less of your AC and have less contact but not say anything because you don't want to be possessive of your AC. The annoyance you feel when on more than one occasion an arrangement to meet up is cancelled at the last minute, is kept to yourself.

You want your AC to be happy and don't want to be a source of discontent in their relationship. You want to get on with their partner, make them welcome and feel they are a part of the family.

It takes time before you, as a parent, other family member or friend can see what's going on and depending on the length of the relationship, the extent of commitment that's been made and the depth of feeling the 'victim' has for their abuser it can be too late.

It's no coincidence that a number of estrangements occur when the first child is born. When not just the relationship with the partner is significant but the desire and need to maintain the family unit for the sake of the child becomes paramount.

It was only with hindsight that we were able to see what had been going on for months. What began when she became pregnant and proceeded with alarming speed once our first GC was born. When he was just 8 months old, we were disposed of.

Not long into our estrangement, our ES told his brother that he'd told his wife he'd given everything up for her. There was then a point when he realised what he'd done, maybe he felt he was in too deep, that he might lose his child if he didn't go along with her demands.

I guess we'll never know but he was right, he did give up everything for her.

HolyHannah you've posted "Dismissing what I am telling you as personal fact/truth is disconcerting" perhaps you could remember that when you dismiss the "personal fact/truth" that EP's share on GN.

Smileless, maybe it's time to apologize to that sweet boy of yours for not warning him in advance, yes?

You can't throw tools at someone that you never taught them how to use and then expect them not to become defensive and angry with you, especially when up to their necks in the mechanics of a manipulative relationship-

Holding yourself accountable for not providing prior guidance could provide him a lifeline, help get his head above the mess he's drowning in-

People don't go from being the kindest of souls to abusive- They do become excessively defensive when pressured and then left adrift and for dead -- estranged- You might want to apologize for that also-

As you have found out, blaming her hasn't worked- If you hold yourself accountable it could provide him with the confidence to follow suit and invite productive discussions-

What do you think?

Smileless -- There is a huge difference between calling out dysfunctional behavior when you see it and telling other people how they are feeling. The fact you can't see the difference is troubling. Are you or Petit in my head? Do you know how I feel? Nope.

It's one thing to say you think I am angry or whatever but declaring it as fact is what is troubling. Abusers often tell people what other people are feeling and use that to set the narrative to 'outsiders'.

Who warns their children about abusive, toxic, manipulative and coercive people rosecarmel?

I remember posting here on GN about when our boys were young, warning them about going off with strangers, people who might be 'bad'. Our ES said 'oh you mean like the child catcher' (from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang). I said well yes, but they don't look like the child catcher, they look just like everyone else, you can't tell they're bad by the way they look.

I was right about that, his wife looks like everyone else, she doesn't look like a bad person, even though she is one.

Our ES was never left adrift and left for dead. He walked away and refused any contact; there was nothing we could do. What a ridiculous post yours is, but only to be expected when all you appear to want to do is have a go at an EP. 'Oh no don't blame you ES's wife, it's your fault for not giving him the tools he needed to see her for what she really is'. He wasn't the only one who was duped, we were duped too. As I've said, a ridiculous post.

You might like to apologise for your ridiculous and melodramatic post, but I doubt it.

I disagree HolyHannah. You incorrectly accused PetiteFromage of dismissing what you post as your personal truth/fact which is laughable when you constantly do that to the EP's on GN. You know what I mean, 'if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck ...'

Hannah - I truly did not mean to upset you and I am sorry that I have. I am going to bow out now, but I wish you well. X

Smileless -- If there is an apple to be compared to an orange you always seem to find it.

Telling someone they are upset/angry etc. when they are not shows a whole lot of dysfunctional thinking.

Dysfunctional thought 1 -- You or Petit or anyone else knows how/what I am feeling. What part of, "I am not angry." needs to be constantly discounted/dismissed?

Dysfunctional thought 2 -- Me saying, "I don't believe the whole it's all the evil DiL narrative." is not the same as saying I don't believe someone when they say they are angry, upset, mad, happy, glad or any other emotion.

Dismissing other peoples emotions OR putting/ascribing emotions to them that are not there is highly unhealthy thinking.

The fact that you see the two issues as "the same" is exactly what I am talking about.

"You expect us to believe you when you say you aren't angry but you won't believe our 'truth' that our estrangement is all on our evil Dil." is your mentality.

Not the same things at all and if you can't see that, maybe that's part of your relationship issues with your family?

And nope. Still not upset. Just stating facts as usual.

No you don't state facts HolyHannah just what you perceive to be facts that are IMO distorted by your own faulty perception filter.

"And nope. Still not upset" what a strange thing to post! It is never my intention to upset anyone; I leave that to you, to try anyway.

Smileless -- And your opinion, humble or not, does not supersede clinical studies and documented research.

Your feeling that I am seeing things 'wrong' is only based on your feelings. Show me an example of where, psychologically, my thinking is faulty and back it with something other then your opinions/feelings.

As for the "still not upset..." That was to Petit because she insisted AGAIN "I truly did not mean to upset you and I am sorry that I have..." And nope. Still not angry/upset or any other emotion. What part of, "Please do not put emotions onto me that I am not feeling." is difficult to digest?

I don't find "Please do not put emotions onto me that I am not feeling" difficult to digest HolyHannah, just your posts in general. That said there's something to be said for their entertainment value.

Smileless -- You couldn't discredit anything I said in my post of Jun-20 18:52:48 so instead you moved to an ad hominem attack on me.

Then you accused/projected onto ME that it is I that am trying to "upset others".

And then you moved on to mocking me by calling what I have to say "entertaining".

Wow. Any other dysfunctional behavior you want to throw at me?

That said there's something to be said for their entertainment value

Smileless I assume you seen the post from Gransnet last week. Does that only apply to other posters and not you?

Whenever threads begin to get a little heated, there you are, always right in the middle of it.

Yet always first the play the victim.

*to

You can't be cautious of something or know what to look for if you aren't taught to

Very true Rosecarmel But it is in my view too simplistic to think that therefore if a child is taught to look for coercive controlling behaviours they won't be caught by it because they will recognise it.

The whole thing is complicated by other factors in adult life....sexual attraction; the kindness and generosity that is recognised as a key strategy used by a coercive controller at the start of a relationship etc etc. It is not instant, it is over time …. and behaviours are gradual and insidious. By the time someone might start to recognise it they might have further complications...children; financial commitments or be bound to their coercive partner by finances or have their finances controlled. etc etc.

I am not saying that it is never because of childhood upbringing that someone finds themselves in a coercive controlled relationship. I am saying that it is not a given that if someone is in that type of relationship it must be because of failing on the part of their parents

Interesting Link: www.laurarichards.co.uk/coercive-control/

Quote
*Initially lovebombing and charm may occur to get the victim into the relationship. Gaslighting, isolation, economic control and financial abuse and rules and regulations are gradually introduced over time once the victim is emotionally invested as well as a consequence if they are broken. The rules apply to the victim rather the perpetrator creating a double standard and the victim fears the consequence if she breaks a rule.
Over time, coercively controlling behaviour erodes the victim’s sense of self, their confidence and self-esteem, agency and autonomy.
The abuser creates an unreal world of contradiction, confusion and fear. Moreover 51% of victims do not even know that they are being abused, manipulated and controlled*

Great post Madgran and a very interesting and informative link.

Another entertaining post HolyHannah.

Another entertaining post HolyHannah

More baiting and antagonising.