The 'Perception Filter'...

Perception.....the title of the thread!

So easy to dismiss someone else’s and their experience and feel that your own has value.

In my experience of many many estranged children, they estrange when they have children of their own because they look at them and realise that they could never treat their own beautiful innocent child the way they were treated. They realise the way they were treated just wasn't normal.

Sadly I was very depressed and unwell when I began my parenting journey and I honestly believed that the way I was treated by mum, I deserved. I didn't think they could treat my children as they treated me until my children started pointing it out. I went No Contact.

Holyhannah has asked people don't tell her how she feels. Strange that seems to have pushed buttons. Maybe it needs more thought instead of basic almost neanderthal retorts.

Motherofdragons pot calling the kettle!!

For estranged parents who wish Holyhannah to believe that they are innocent and have done nothing to deserve estrangement.

You seem very determined to prove her right.

I have seen this play out here over and over again, I have myself been bullied and lied about by estranged parents here. I have seen estranged children laughed at, belittled and abused here.

Yet again, this will be denied by those who want to carry on being nasty while reassuring each other they are wonderful.

I have seen estranged children laughed at, belittled and abused here

The carrot comment by Yogagirl was truly one of the most disgusting things I’ve read on here. Yet the most vocal posters on here said nothing.

Motherofdragons pot calling the kettle!!

In what way?

Always being the common denominator of heated threads? Playing the victim? Baiting and antagonising other posters?

Dismissing what I am telling you as personal fact/truth is disconcerting

Yes that is disconcerting, for anyone when it happens to them.

I suggest we get back to topic as otherwise, some will work to get this discussion and their embarrassment deleted so it appears to have never happened.

Madgran -- In relation to telling people how they are feeling and dismissing and trying to insist that they are feeling something they are not... Yes, that is very disconcerting.

Not believing someone when they say, "It's all my evil DiL's fault I am estranged." is not the same as someone insisting I am upset or angry when I am not.

If someone wants to think/believe I am angry? Fine. Telling me I am angry and continuing to say I am, after I have clearly stated I am not is the issue.

Apples and oranges.

I suggest we get back to topic as otherwise, some will work to get this discussion and their embarrassment deleted so it appears to have never happened

Ah, this didn’t even cross my mind.

Nice catch Starblaze.

I won’t take the bait.

Starblaze -- One of the last phone calls I had with my 'mom' went something like this:

'mom' -- "Hannah, I know you are upset about 'incident'."

Me -- "Don't worry about it. No big deal." the conversation continued.

'mom' -- "About the incident... I know you are angry."

Me -- "Nope. I really don't care." more conversation.

'mom' -- "About the incident...."

Me -- "I've already told you I am not angry."

'mom' -- "But I know you are angry..."

Me -- "Well, I am now." and I hung up on her.

From her perspective I was angry about 'the incident' and THAT is why I hung up on her. What I was actually annoyed about was her insisting I was angry when I was not and then not listening as I calmly told her numerous times I was not upset until she made me upset.

Holyhannah one of my final straws was very similar. I am ashamed I needed to have her behaviour proven so often. So many final straws.

But there was a clash of events, Mum, stepdad and brother had already in depth discussed how angry I would be about it and worked themselves into a frenzy. I suddenly had a barrage of messages and phone calls telling me off before I even knew what was happening.

Like you, I'm just not an angry person at all amd it takes an incredible amount of time to push me there. It's very confusing to be told you are feeling things you aren't.

Then those abusive people, in that one situation, eventually managed to harass nd accuse me so much I did become angry.

They hit the Jackpot and claimed they were right all along.

Yes Pantglas I wonder if the irony was intended.

*Not believing someone when they say, "It's all my evil DiL's fault I am estranged." is not the same as someone insisting I am upset or angry when I am not.

If someone wants to think/believe I am angry? Fine. Telling me I am angry and continuing to say I am, after I have clearly stated I am not is the issue.

Apples and oranges.*

I'm not really sure why you are telling me this Holy Hannah I was just agreeing with you that "dismissing what I am telling you as personal/fact truth is disconcerting" and I was saying that it would be for anyone.

At a certain point it is perfectly natural for our children to become immersed in their own lives and leave us behind. After all, this is what we wanted for our children to become independent, and make their own happy family unit. Our job is not to push into their new life, but to sit back and wait until they need us again. We then need to make our own lives not based on our children. To be welcoming but not be too pushy or too needy, they have no obligation to include us in their life, it is nice when the do. The reward for being patient is that when they have children, they will realise that they do need us and we become a much loved Granny and Gramps,

I agree with you, Madgran, that anyone could be taken off guard- And that isn't too simplistic or too sweeping of a statement since everyone is potentially vulnerable-

That being said, you see how easy it is to provide informative sources on the subject- It would be just as easy to have a discussion with your teen or younger child as they begin to form relationships- Talks geared to their particular age-

If a discussion doesn't take place, they'll have no prior point of reference, no knowledge of specific behaviors and cues-

Who would be responsible for not having that discussion with their child? I know I would be if I didn't- And it would be one of many things I have apologized for as a parent, as a person-

Smileless, you've indicated more than once that you estranged your son because he became abusive- I don't recall you ever saying that he was the one to walk away-

You ask who warns their kids about abusive, toxic, manipulative and coercive people? I did- And continue to- But there's plenty that was left unsaid, actions that weren't taken, and that's on me as a parent, on me to apologize for- Which is also something I continue to do: apologize-

Why? Because I don't feel like I have to be right- But do aspire to being clearly understood and aspire to clearly understand where my children are coming from-

I don't believe it's always the parents fault because I believe it's always the parents responsibility-

I agree with Madgran that it's a complicated dynamic and circumstance- But there's one question to ask anyone in such a compromising situation that cuts to the chase: Is the marriage you're in the marriage you'd want for your child?

You continue to respond to my posts despite the fact that you find them melodramatic and ridiculous ..

So melodramatic .. that it even comes with a tiny violin .. ?

It would be just as easy to have a discussion with your teen or younger child as they begin to form relationships- Talks geared to their particular age-

I agree with you on that rosecarmel. I did as a parent. I dont believe that guarantees their "immunity" from ending up in a coercive relationship though which is why I dont think it is a given assumption that if an AC ends up in a coercive relationship it must be because their parents did something wrong. It may be but I dont think it is a given.

All I know is that the systematic abuse was rampant in my entire community... The last thing any 'adult' was going to teach or enlighten their children on was what abusers actually "looked liked"/how they behaved.

As soon as I met an "outside influence" that did/could explain what I always saw? Talk about a light bulb moment.

Even the most basic of mental health knowledge, if given at an early age, could 'change the world' to abuse victims... But who would be responsible/should impart that knowledge?

The adults of course... Unless they are abusive in which case the last thing they will say/do is teach what abusers look like... lest their victim(s) look at them and say, "Isn't that exactly how You behave?"

And I did say 'that' at times when my 'mom' would complain about, "Don't you hate it when someone does insert."

If someone had told me at age five or seven or before suicidal thought era/age 10+ for me, "Abusers gas-light and will say, 'I am not doing insert while they are actually doing that'... Don't believe their lies and believe your reality/truth..." I would have done 'better' much sooner.

With all the new openess about mental illness it is heartening to see more understanding. I would say however, not all mental illness us caused by an abusive home, the most loving of parents have children with severe mental issues. Whereas they try and try to help the person, when the person with the problems is constantly abusuve and you are frightened, there is no choice as a last resort to protect yourself and others you are responsible for. I find it very worrying that people who get violent when not on medication are not monitored are out and about, it is well know test for one condition the person stops the meds because they feel they don't need it. Sometimes you can understand estrangement.

I have never estranged our son rosecarmel!! After 4 years of our estrangement, just before we moved, I wrote to him to say 'goodbye'.

We were moving from our home, the village we'd lived in for 30 years to make a new life for our selves, to move on and begin to heal. Neither of which we realised after 4 years was going to be possible living just 15 doors away from him and the GC we would occasionally catch site of, but weren't allowed any contact with.

For my own well being I needed to close that particular chapter in my life and say my goodbyes to the son who had walked away from, and estranged his parents. He became abusive once he'd estranged us. I have never indicated that we estranged him.

"Is the marriage you're in the marriage you'd want for your child?", absolutely.

I don't find all of your posts melodramatic, just the one I referred too as being so.

I agree with you PGAgirl and I referred to what you've posted earlier on this thread. A parent may well have some concerns about their AC's relationship due to less contact with their AC, arrangements being made and cancelled at the last minute on more than one occasion.

Not wanting to be or be seen as being pushy, understanding that when their AC becomes involved in a serious relationship the dynamic of their own changes and wanting their AC's partner to be and feel welcomed into the family, nagging concerns that begin to surface are kept to themselves and/or between the AC's parents.

Sadly for some the reward for patience and understanding is never received and they'll never know what it's like to be called Granny and Gramps, never mind experience what it's like to be much loved GP's.

It isn't "a given" as you say Madgran it's ridiculous IMO to take parent blaming when it comes to the issue of estrangement, to the point where it's the parent(s) fault if their AC becomes involved in an abusive coercive relationship.

I agree with not blaming the parents Smileless. I got into situations I wanted to save my children from. I don't feel that my parents equipped me to deal with them and I can't believe what I tolerated now. I talked to and taught my children and, you know, they still had to have learning experiences. I think it's often inexperience that leads to these kind of situations. When you are new to dating, it takes a while to find out who the person really is and you do need to learn. I think a lot of my own mistakes were because of messages wider society sent me rather than anything my parents did or didn't do.

That's an important point OceanMama. If you've had personal experience of a bad situation or relationship, you are alerted to the possibility of it happening to your own child(ren).

I was abused as a small child and made certain that neither of our boys would ever be in similar circumstances where that may happen, when they were of a similar age; too young to have talked to them about it.

As you say, inexperience can lead to certain situations. Neither of us had had any experience of an abusive, coercive adult and it was only with hindsight, when it was too late, that we could see what had been going on.

Regardless of the tools we give our children, just as it is with ourselves, they have to learn and that can mean learning from their mistakes, or not as the case may be.

Smileless.....your post on here at 9.31am today....Well you couldnt have put anything better. You put my thoughts into words in this post..........thank you

Thanks yorkie