The 'Perception Filter'...

HolyHannah, I stand by your last post 100%-

Abuse and neglect were systemic in my community too, and accepted as a societal norms-

Nobody could be accountable if they didn't have a clue, impart knowledge, or wisely apply it-

Abusive people do not want to be seen as abusive, not even by the person they are abusing.

I really didn't understand at first how my mum could deny things when it was just her and I alone. Sometimes she would deny saying something 5 minutes after saying it.

Me being logically minded, I thought she must be right, I must be crazy and imagining it because she has nothing to lose by admitting it to me.

Abusive people, I later learned after referring myself thinking I was crazy, of course don't want their victims to see them as abusive, or the victims go away and they can't abuse them any more.

They absolutely cannot hide it all the time though, abusive behaviours slip out, especially when they are angry.

You see an abusive person behave abusively when they are mad, they will generally blame someone else for making them angry. Never take responsibility for their own behaviour.

That's how you can tell the difference between a truly abusive person and someone who got mad and lashed out. Whether or not they offer a genuine apology for their bad behaiour.

Madgran, I don't think discussions provide immunity either but do provide insight-

If a parent didn't have the insight to provide, it's their responsibility to be truthful regarding that fact- They could say, " Jack/Jane, I'm sorry about the difficult situation you're in and sorry that as a parent I had no knowledge or insight to provide you with in advance- Thank you for helping me to understand you, your circumstance and teaching me about something I wasn't aware of- You have my support-"

Instead of, "It's all his/her fault-" Meaning the the manipulative partner- Because it will only lead to distancing, defensiveness and eventually estrangement-

One example teaches accountability and the other to "blame"-

The carrots again ..

I'm completely guilty for laughing at that one ..

It brought back memories of me puking at the kitchen table when being forced to eat what I didn't like ..

To me, the carrots are like one of those war stories that sometimes produce traumatic laughter or uncontrollable sobbing ..

I did find it funny to puke all over the kitchen table tho ..

I'm completely guilty for laughing at that one

And I absolutely understand why!

The post I was referring to however was chilling to read. Sadistic, really.

I have never had an apology from my mother. Ever.

As a child, I took responsibility for many things which was not mine to take. I refuse to do that anymore.

As an adult and mother, I hold myself accountable to my children and will always apologise to them as I am human, I have faults, many faults, however, I am not afraid to acknowledge those faults and strive to be and do better. I definitely picked up a few of my mother’s dysfunctional behaviours, and I have worked hard not to replicate those with my own children.

A common theme I see when it comes to estrangement is an inability to say sorry. The inability to acknowledge wrongdoing and to genuinely apologise for it. For some people, it seems to be almost impossible.

Abusive people don't have to be mad to be abusive they just are, and if they're called out on it and do apologise in order to maintain their fake persona, the apology is false.

It goes without saying IMO that an abuser doesn't want to be seen for what they are, especially by their 'victim' if the abuse is happening in an adult relationship, as an adult is more likely, though not always of course, to walk away.

The second paragraph of your post at 16.34 today rosecarmel is impossible if the AC has estranged their parent(s) and refuses all and any communication. It's also impossible if the AC refuses to acknowledge or is unable to see that their partner is abusive.

A conversation of that nature would need to be instigated by the AC. If it were instigated by their parent(s) they would simply become defensive and if estrangement hadn't already taken place, it may well do.

It's rather like this:

From my 'mom's perception I am 100% to blame for our estrangement.

My perception is HER lack of willing to accept accountability for her behavior that we are estranged.

My 'mom's perception is that my mental health issues are to blame.

Let's say my MHI's were Caner instead... I went to a doctor and the doctor said, "Well Hannah, you have cancer." So I received treatment for the 'cancer' and I went into remission/got healthier.

After this happens, I start to see the same signs of 'cancer' in other family members. Unfortunately THEY are "too good" to get 'cancer' like me or that I am blowing their symptoms "out of proportion" because I am so focused on my 'cancer' that I see it in everybody.

No... I just see the signs of 'cancer' when they are present. If my 'family' wants to ignore that 'cancer' it becomes their choice. Unfortunately abuse is a contagious 'cancer' so once you've survived 'it' going back to be re-exposed becomes your issue.

Abusers don't seek out treatment and try to discredit anyone who has 'survived' because they don't see any 'symptoms' of their own 'cancer'. Who seeks out treatment for a disease they don't have?

I should add that a lot of Cancer's are genetic, so if I have 'cancer' doesn't it stand to reason that my parents and siblings might also be at an elevated risk of that same 'cancer'?

I would-heartedly disagree with you, Smileless-

If estrangement has already taken place, blame has already been made- By the parent- The estranged child isn't accountable for, nor responsible for apologizing for parental, knee-jerk reactions to complicated matters-

*whole-heartedly

*If a parent didn't have the insight to provide, it's their responsibility to be truthful regarding that fact- They could say, " Jack/Jane, I'm sorry about the difficult situation you're in and sorry that as a parent I had no knowledge or insight to provide you with in advance- Thank you for helping me to understand you, your circumstance and teaching me about something I wasn't aware of- You have my support-"

Instead of, "It's all his/her fault-" Meaning the the manipulative partner- Because it will only lead to distancing, defensiveness and eventually estrangement- *

I do understand what you are saying rosecarmel. However that conversation rests on the AC being aware, able to acknowledge the situation that they are in, or even that it is difficult. A pattern in coercive control relationships is that the victim takes many months/years, if ever, to actually begin to recognise/realise what is happening to them

In the context of conversations on GN posters who are EPs are not speaking to their children when they post, they are describing their perceptions of what has caused the problem to Gransnetters. That does not make it a given that they have told their estranged AC (before the estrangement) that it is all the ACs partners fault. They may have done that, they may not, But the fact that they express that view on GN does not mean that they have or have not had that conversation with their AC.

Some EPs on threads have acknowledged some sort of version of the conversation you describe with the ACs. Some have described how the AC was unable to acknowledge what was being said because they were unable to acknowledge their own situation. Other EPs have described how, after differing lengths of estrangement, the AC has contacted them because they have started to realise the situation they are in..in a coercive controlling relationship. They have contacted because they know that their EP will still step up for them , despite all that has happened. Some of those estrangements have ended as a result, with ACs acknowledging that their relationship caused the problems.

I cannot immediately reference the posters and anyway I wouldn't want to because it is their story to tell in whatever thread they wish to...plus I know some no longer post on estrangement ...they have moved into a new era with their ACs. Which is very positive for them and for their ACs presumably.

The estranged child isn't accountable for, nor responsible for apologizing for parental, knee-jerk reactions to complicated matters-

No the estranged child is not responsible for parental knee jerk reactions. But it is not a given that there has been "Parental knee jerk reactions" in every estrangement.
Estrangement is such a multifaceted thing and parenting is only one part of a very huge issue isn't it.

The estranged child isn't accountable for, nor responsible for apologizing for parental, knee-jerk reactions to complicated matter. I agree and the EP isn't accountable or responsible for apologising for an AC's, knee-jerk reaction to complicated matters.

Another excellent post Madgran.

I didn't say abusers have to be mad/angry to be abusive, I said they often out themselves to other people when they are. Or another way of putting it, they drop the mask for a moment.

Madgran, largely, when estranged parents on this site describe their circumstance, what they perceive, personal accountability is absent from their narrative- It hasn't taken a back seat, it's simply non-existent -

Otherwise, it's all deflecting (think single player Pong..) story after story being honed and reinforced-

There are the exceptions and acknowledgements, as you have described- But they're rare-

As far as knee-jerk reactions are concerned, they crop up in many of the stories being shared-

Every story differs- Yet one common thread that stitches many of them together is the lack of parental accountability-

Unless responsibility is shared, there will always be an inclination to assign fault- Its a dynamic not specific to familial interactions but happening on a global scale-

If a parent becomes estranged from their AC due to that AC being controlled and manipulated by their coercive partner, there is no accountability on the part of that parent, unless the parent could see that their AC was involved with such a person and chose to ignore it.

When that realisation is reached once the estrangement has taken place, and there's no communication with the AC in question, there is nothing the parent can do.

largely, when estranged parents on this site describe their circumstance, what they perceive, personal accountability is absent from their narrative- It hasn't taken a back seat, it's simply non-existent

Yes certainly some are like that. Some are not. Some EPs talk about what they did wrong and what they have done about it

The point is whatever common themes are observed/identified, there are examples of other themes, other reasons, other behaviours, other scenarios, other experiences, other reactions, knee jerk or otherwise

. A common set of themes that do seem to apply to all estrangement, unsurprisingly, are pain, sadness, hurt and for many massive efforts to heal, move on , cope with what has happened, survive. For some it is explaining how they have achieved that.

Many facets to estrangement.

How do you know the partner is controlling and abusive after estrangement if it wasn't apparent before estrangment?

How do you know the partner is controlling and abusive after estrangement if it wasn't apparent before estrangment?

I don't know the answer to that question Starblaze.

I am thinking more of EPs who have experienced a gradual and eventual final estrangement or a sudden estrangement after a partner gets together with an AC.

Of course that may be caused by an AC beginning to recognise aspects of their family relationships, their childhood experiences with more confidence or clarity because of a supportive partner. Equally it might be because the AC is being pulled into a coercive and controlling relationship. Or it could be something else.

Many facets to estrangement

Madgran, I agree that there are many facets to estrangement- And when looking at a multifaceted gem, you will notice that those facets are connected, they share the same stone, the light from each surface blends and reflects-

And like faceted gems, nothing that occurs in families is separate- They're interconnected-

Here is a facet of estrangement.

I wear a necklace that my mum bought me, it has a little pendant of my favourite thing.

My mum bought me many bad gifts over the years and sometimes nothing while buying things she knew I wanted for herself. Sometimes expensive things she knew weren't my taste or were in her size not mine. They ended up back with her as she always cut the labels out of things so they couldn't be exchanged. It was like an odd game every birthday. She would be happy and excited to give me a gift, I would fall over myself to be grateful and she would smirk because she knew what she was doing and then she'd stick knives in and generally have me crying. She spoiled all my birthdays in lots of ways that are long stories.

This inexpensive little necklace was different though. I love it. Its exactly me. In that moment I felt seen and loved and wanted.

Now, she couldn't let me be that happy so she let it slip that she had bought it previously for herself and she had a lot of money on the credit card so she hoped I wouldn't mind that she hadnt bought me something new. She said she saw it on the dresser and thought "I won't wear that again and I have lots of necklaces, Star can have it".

I'm estranged from my mum and I wear this necklace because just for a moment I saw the loving relationship I'd always wanted with my mum and I want to keep that memory.

I wear it because I loved her, in that moment I had what I wanted and it wasn't me who destroyed our relationship.

Smileless said -- "It goes without saying IMO that an abuser doesn't want to be seen for what they are, especially by their 'victim' if the abuse is happening in an adult relationship, as an adult is more likely, though not always of course, to walk away."

There is little stigma in today's world for a domestic partner who leaves an abusive relationship... So why would an adult feel 'worse' for having been abused by another adult when they know society is/will be largely supportive of that decision/choice? They would not...

Even the abusive party in that adult/adult relationship has the cop-out answer of, "We both entered this relationship as adults. If there were/are issues they are AT LEAST 50/50." And a lot of society will agree, including Me at times...

So, in what relationship would/should it be seen as inexcusable to be abusive? Answer -- The parent/child relationship above all others. Why? Because the parent holds 100% of the 'power'/authority/responsibility over the child(ren) for the formative years of the child's life.

And yet... Almost every EP claims to be 100% blameless/clueless OR there is 'someone else' that is 100% responsible for the estrangement. Never 'them'... EP's are never even 50% of the issue...

I haven't said an adult would feel worse for being abused by another adult rosecarmel. That said, it is accepted that it can be more difficult for men to admit to being abused by their wives/female partners, as women are viewed as the 'weaker' sex.

What point are you trying to make by saying "Almost every EP claims to be 100% blameless/clueless" etc? Almost every EAC says they had no option but to estrange, do you ever regard that as something unlikely to be true?

Sorry, my post of 9.33 was to HolyHannah

No option but to estrange isn't the same as saying 100% blameless.

Its absolutely nowhere near the same.

The blame can be dead on 50/50 and its still no option but to estrange if the relationship isn't working, nothing is improving and one party does not want the relationship any more.

In that case, the end of the relationship is absolutely for the best for both parties.

I'm not blameless as an adult who occasionally fought with my mum. I was however 100% blameless as a small innocent child.

Talking about percentages of blame is pointless though is it not?

If I have an argument with my child, we don't then go about deciding who was most to blame for it.

We just apologise for our angry behaviour, hug and work out how to not repeat it in the future.