The 'Perception Filter'...

Having fall outs, disagreements and arguments are part of being in a relationship, as is apologising, hugging and finding a way forward.

All featured in our relationship with our ES and remain a feature in our relationship with our DS; they were not however reasons for our estrangement.

From your perspective Smileless

Yes of course. I post from my perspective and you post from yours, it what's we all do and there's nothing wrong with that, providing we are open to the perspective of others.

No I just mean that people have their own perception in relationships don't they. Any relationship that breaks down. How many are shocked when their marriage ends etc. Both people participated in the same relationship, the same arguments and events...

Sometimes relationship break apart because both are tired of it and sometimes because one is tired of it.

Just because one party is happy that arguments and problems have been resolved in a satisfactory manner, doesn't mean the other feels the sameway.

Yes that's true but doesn't apply when a previously solid relationship falls apart when a third party becomes involved.

Smileless said -- "Yes that's true but doesn't apply when a previously solid relationship falls apart when a third party becomes involved."

Oh sooo many EP's say that. My 'mom' would as well.

"Hannah and I were SOOOO 'close'...." and that was HER perspective. Just because SHE thought we were 'close' doesn't make it so.

Two people adult/child or adult/adult can be in a relationship and one person can say the relationship is wonderful and the other person can be drowning. The person in the water (the unhappy party) knows how they feel but if the other half of the relationship sees them as standing on dry ground, how do you get the person on dry land to see you are wet/unhappy?

There is no magic 'third party' when the relationship was never solid. Most parents who become estranged were never as close to their kids as they claim... At least that seems to be the message I hear from most EAC.

Yes that's true but doesn't apply when a previously solid relationship falls apart when a third party becomes involved

How can you possibly know?

One party to the relationship may have been tired of the arguments and problems for a long time and their choosing to raise the issue coincides with the introduction of the third party. It can have nothing to do with the third party, although I understand why it is easier to lay blame with the third party.

You can never truly know if a relationship is solid because you can never truly what another person is thinking or know how another person is feeling. It’s impossible.

And like faceted gems, nothing that occurs in families is separate- They're interconnected

True! Interconnected though is not the same as cause and effect in my view.

That's part of the problem- The perception that relationships are solid/static when they are not-

They are ever changing and fragile-

Like life itself-

When reassured by one of my children that a result isn't due to something I did I initially want to run directly into that comfortable assessment- But I can't- Because responsibility is shared, and I say so- As a parent, it's up to me foster a deeper understanding-

MotherofDragons -- This is why I put my foot down when other people tell me how I am feeling. Or declaring that I am feeling certain ways...

That is exactly what abusers say/do. "Oh Hannah is angry so that's why..." or "Hannah and I were sooo close." and it's like that is now fact/reality. However, that only puts into consideration how SHE thinks I felt and not what I actually felt.

Abusers not only do not care about their victims feelings, they deny their victim even HAS feelings. It's easier to abuse something if you don't see 'it' as an autonomous being with feelings that should be considered. Even if an abuser recognizes that their victim does have feelings, they ignore those feelings because they are unimportant/irrelevant -- at least to the abuser...

I'm sure my mom would say, "Hannah was such a happy child. Always smiling and bubbly." I would say, "Yes, like every Scapegoat kid I acted the way I was told to act. I was told I was 'happy' so I acted 'it'. But I had suicidal thoughts starting at age 10. Does that sound like a 'happy' healthy child???"

And she would retort with, "But you were a happy child."

If you are saying you know or telling someone what they are feeling, just STOP. No person can know what another is feeling unless they tell YOU what they are feeling. What you think the other person is feeling is irrelevant and often incorrect.

They are ever changing - yes

and fragile - some have a stronger base than others for a variety of reasons

Interconnected though is not the same as cause and effect in my view

Yes! I can see that you see that, too!

That interconnectedness is static: Nothing moves-

I respect you view -- even if it isn't scientifically possible ..

Holding on to the view that a relationship has a stronger base could prove even more devastating when it breaks-

I didn't say interconnectedness was static! I said it is not the same as cause and effect and I meant in relationships...yes interconnectedness does impact on cause and effect but it is not an absolute given that a specific interconnectedness is the cause of a specific effect.

Now we could get into a scientific debate here about Newtons Orbital Cradle but as we are discussing relationships I am not going to.

And I am puzzled as to how you could interpret any of my comments as saying that "nothing moves" but hey ho!

There are connections between causes and effects: Nothing is separate-

Anything that arises is dependent-

You're psychologically cherry-picking and trying to prove that some parents have zero impact- But hey ho!

There are connections between causes and effects
Obviously!

Anything that arises is dependent

Yes dependent on a cause, but in relationships one cause is not a given. Which brings me back to my original points made up thread.

I will not be repeating myself as I think we will be going round in circles for ever a bit like the "OozelumBird"!

Moving on!

HolyHannah, you need professional help. No one is equipped on here to deal with your issues, you just go round in circles trying to convince people to agree with your perceptions, when it doesn’t work you start another post exactly the same vein.

You're psychologically cherry-picking and trying to prove that some parents have zero impact

I have NEVER said that some parents have zero impact and I do not believe that and never have. Again I have no idea how you can interpret anything I have said as that!

As I said Moving on!

Yes dependent on a cause, but in relationships one cause is not a given

Exactly! You're cherry-picking!

You cannot talk about a "relationship" and then suggest "one" in that relationship isn't a given!

You cannot talk about a "relationship" and then suggest "one" in that relationship isn't a given

I didn't mean the people in the relationship. I meant the facets in a relationship

Moving on....!

Madgran, you keep trying to sort and separate the chaotic, interconnected nature of multi-faceted relationships in an effort to prove that "one" in a collective, connected bunch isn't accountable for their reflection, refraction, interaction or lack of-

It cannot be done ..

The end result of your effort is "Golden" ..

Sparkling, you're repeating yourself .. again ..

Why does it matter if soooo many EP's say that HolyHannah? That doesn't make what they're saying untrue does it. So that's something your mother would say, what's your point?

Presumably if your mother said so, it would be a lie but you can't judge every other EP on your mother's behaviour, anymore than I can judge every EAC's behaviour on our ES's. If I were to do that, I'd regard every EAC's decision to estrange their parent(s) as being due to a third party, and disregard everything else they say.

When and EAC posts on GN about their abusive childhood, their toxic/narcissistic parent(s) I don't refuse to believe them or try to undermine their story because it doesn't concur with mine. Why do you constantly do that to the EP's that post on GN?

If you are saying you know or are telling someone you know the cause of their estrangement, just STOP. Take on board what they're telling you, do them the courtesy of listening to what they have to say without judging them because of your own personal experiences.

MotherofDragons you can understand why it's easier to lay blame with a third party yet you don't seem to be able to accept that some estrangements are because of the influence of a third party.