Is 'No Contact' abuse?

Your missing the point. The point is that at some point in an abusers life they will abuse someone or something (an animal) for the first time.

They may have never given any indication before that first act of abusive behaviour that they could be abusive, but they are aren't they.

If the act of estrangement is not intrinsically abusive, how do you know that was the point your son then became abusive is what I am asking Smileless unless you think all estrangement is an act of abuse regardless so can assign it to your son easily?

That's an unfair and uncalled for comment Starblaze that has impacted on me negatively. I do not "think all estrangement is an act of abuse regardless" and you know that full well because of what I post here on GN. It is no easier for me to assign an act of abuse to my own son than I would think it is for you to do so to your mother.

We have an email from our ES before the estrangement in which he said "we will never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him". I didn't have to go back to the email to remind myself of the exact words because I've never forgotten them.

Our son estranged us and took our GC away knowing how much we loved him, after giving us written assurance that he'd never do so. It was, is and will always be for us, an act of abuse.

Sorry Smileless I just didn't understand how that works logically.

Dropping it.

OK Starblaze

But it’s not abusive. He’s not abusing you. He has made a decision for himself. He gets control over his own life.
The alternative being that he is forced to have a relationship that causes him harm.

*Bibbity But it’s not abusive. He’s not abusing you. He has made a decision for himself. He gets control over his own life.
The alternative being that he is forced to have a relationship that causes him harm*

I DO NOT believe that estrangement is abusive per se. I DO believe that people should be able to make decisions about their own life.

However, I DO think that telling someone that you are going to estrange, in writing, that "we will never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him". and then doing that exact thing is at the very least cruel. Smileless has said many times that no explanation was given for that change of heart. Ofcourse, as has been pointed out many many times, many EPs "dont hear" the reasons given etc so please can we not tell her that all over again! I imagine she could do without it. But to be honest, on common decency, a written explanation of the reasons why the first written statement no longer applied, would be common decency!!! Especially as the first written statement acknowledged how much the GPs loved their child!!

My husband once told his mother many many years (before we’d even met) that he would never keep her from his children (who weren’t born!) like his brother had done.

Things change. If he hadn’t formally cut off then he’d probably be slated for not ever telling them.
Nobody is saying it’s not painful, or life altering. But the act of estrangement alone is not abusive.

What on earth are you talking about Bibbity? It might not be abusive to you but it is to us. You might see it as abuse if it happened to you, then again you might not. Until you experience it, and I hope you never do, you wont know will you.

I wouldn't dream of saying I think your H's estrangement of his parents is abusive, because all estrangement is abusive, so don't tell me that my experience isn't a case of abuse just because in your opinion, it never is.

Because abuse is not an opinion. It’s fact.
Cutting off itself is not an act of abuse.

How would you feel Bibbity, if a child of yours went no contact, with or without an explanation?

I agree Bibbity that abuse is not an opinion it's a fact, and when I say that Mr. S. and I have been abused by our son estranging us and taking away our GC , that is also a fact and your opinion doesn't change that.

How would you feel Bibbity, if a child of yours went no contact, with or without an explanation?

Destroyed. But that’s not the point is it?
Fine. You can say you feel that. But the fact is it doesn’t make your son an abuser.

Well that's very generous of you Bibbity but I don't need your permission to feel the way I feel, or express how I feel.

OK......But ridiculous.
We’re on Public chat forum, you’re engaging in this discussion.

My husband once told his mother many many years (before we’d even met) that he would never keep her from his children (who weren’t born!) like his brother had done. Things change.

I agree things change Bibbity. I am not saying that things don't change. I do think that it is cruel to not say "Things have changed because …"! I am NOT saying that your husband did or not do that, I have no idea.

In the context of writing to someone and telling them they will not be cut off from their GC because of knowing how much that person loves their GC ...and then doing exactly that but without explanation ...that is as I said before at the very least cruel and in terms of emotional abuse I would say abusive. Lack of explanation is a recognised tool in emotional abuse. Again, I am aware that I do not know the exact chain of events, the whole story as perceived by all parties, but on the basis of what has been presented here that action in that specific context, is to me emotionally abusive behaviour.

If my children estranged me I wouldn't see it as abuse either, I'd be asking myself some extremely difficult questions about where I had gone wrong and booking myself straight back into counselling to figure it out so I could go to my child and fix it properly. I know I would do this because it is what I tried to do with my mum.

In the event of the counsellor saying I was entirely blameless (unlikely I am not perfect), I'd then be working towards overcoming the resulting grief and moving forward which is a hard process but worth it.

In that scenario I would still not view it as abuse, I would view it as an end to abuse or possible abuse.

I would expect not to see my grandchildren if I was unable to maintain a relationship with their parent for whatever reason. I honestly wouldn't try because it might be too confusing for them and it might prevent me dealing with the grief of losing my child.

I know no one asked me but I've been thinking about it since and it needed to come out.

Of course I'm engaging in this discussion. What do you expect me to do when your telling me that what's happened to us hasn't happened; ignore your ridiculous comments?

If its a sore spot for you to talk about it. Smileless it might be easier for you to leave this discussion, it's very specific

Obviously my replies are based on the fact that I am not deliberately abusive... I could be abusive and it not be deliberate because I have harmful behaviours I don't recognise in myself. Something could have been missed in counselling.

Hope not. Love my children so much. Hopefully not too much either that I am not enmeshed lol

Minefield.

If my children estranged me I wouldn't see it as abuse either

Nor would I per se. I would view writing to me and acknowledging how I much I love my grandchild and therefore saying I won't be cut off from them ...and then being cut off from them without explanation, written or otherwise, as emotionally abusive.

Lack of explanation is a recognised tool in emotional abuse.

Because that right there is one of the biggest bug bears on the EAC discussion boards. The argument that one individuals feelings and emotions and will is cold hard fact.
You can feel however you want.
He doesn’t have to care. He doesn’t have to align himself with that.
And you feeling abused does not make him an abuser.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of your post Starblaze, so will respond on how I've interpreted it and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

So do you think that we didn't ask ourselves all those difficult questions? I can see that having had counselling previously and knowing what that experience is like, you may feel that would be an option for you. It wasn't an option for us.

Are you by any chance suggesting that I see myself as perfect and have not been "working towards overcoming the resulting grief and moving forward"? I wouldn't have thought so as we actually moved house to enable us to move forward.

Once we were estranged and told we were no longer a part of our ES's and GC's lives, we never expected to see our GC again either. As myself and Madgran have pointed out, we were given a written assurance that we wouldn't be stopped from seeing him. So, having been given that reassurance who would expect to have their GC taken away? Would you?

For us it isn't an end to the abuse. The abuse is in taking away our GC and for as long as we are prevented from knowing our GC, the abuse continues.

For us it does Bibbity. To us our son is an abuser. It's been obvious to us for several years now that not only does our ES not have to care, he doesn't care.