Daughter’s birthday, should I send her a birthday card ?

It always hearsay, that's why I sometimes get a bit bogged down tying to patiently explain or elaborate. I know my mum is not here to give her side. I'm sure if she was, some would belive her over me and I'd have a seriously bad time.

Facts aren't hearsay though, like if I say, that "No Contact" is primarily a term for distancing an abusive person and "silent treatment" is the term for abusing someone by ignoring them... I can find things that back that up, it's not hearsay.

Saying someone who talks about childhood abuse in an appropriate space is abusing their own children is downright nasty, not hearsay.

I don't know everything there is to know about other people and their relationships but sometimes I wonder, by the way they treat me and others, how they can have ever been a good parent. That's just honest truth. I am very sure that people look at me and wonder how I could possibly have been a good daughter.

I wasn't a good enough daughter so... Not new to me lol

Starblaze -- Just like the YouTube 'mom' video and dismissing what gas-lighting is. Just because she says it's "all nonsense" doesn't make that true/into reality.

Gas-lighting, Scapegoating, No Contact and "The Silent Treatment", Narcissistic Abuse etc. all have clinical definitions. I can back those with studies/articles etc. Someone saying those things don't exist, like YT 'mom' doesn't make her OPINION/belief into reality. That's not how 'it' works.

Those that try to sell their belief as reality in the absence of corroborating evidence have an issue. There's a clinical definition for what that "is" as well. Let's just say 'denial' is the 'nice' word.

One is direct from the person -- So son saying, "I estranged for no 'good' reason." The other is what 'mom' SAYS son said. There is a distinct difference.

Yes I agree that the example you say is hearsay. I have not been saying that it isn't hearsay.

I am saying that if someone posts on this forum that their AC/parent/counsellor/or whoever SAID something that is also what the poster SAYS was said and so exactly the same label of "hearsay" can be applied to an awful lot of posts really. Not just when it fits with what one believes

Both of us appear to know what hearsay means!

It always hearsay, that's why I sometimes get a bit bogged down tying to patiently explain or elaborate. I know my mum is not here to give her side. I'm sure if she was, some would belive her over me and I'd have a seriously bad time

Yes Starblaze I agree, it is nearly always hearsay when people are telling their story, inevitable really.

Madgran -- If someone doesn't believe me that my 'mom' was diagnosed as a Narcissist from my Doctor? Cool. Ask a Doctor if that is possible. They'll say, "Yes." That is corroborating evidence beyond my say-so. If there are articles from researchers/clinical professionals/Doctors saying they CAN diagnose someone like my 'mom' through Me, then my assertion is NOT 'hearsay' as I have documentation that can 'back that up'.

So in the absence of that sort of 'evidence' which is tangible/provable/relevant I can back up my assertions/claims. If someone can't provide similar type 'evidence' then I have to assume it is an opinion/belief.

I typed out this big long thought process and just thought "what's the point"

Starblaze -- White flag time... I'm just 'wrong' because I won't believe in things I haven't seen.

I’m willing to believe that some people go no contact for no reason at all to do with the people they’ve estranged.

But I do believe those people are a small minority

Holyhannah I'm just stuck on, if someone is willing to say that awful thing to me, twist my words and meanings, yell at me for perceived slights without asking for clarity, be all disengenuous and make little deniable digs or otherwise lump me in with all EAC as some sort of homogenous mass... I can't look at that and see a good parent.

Counselling taught me that.

Counselling taught me the best thing to do is have nothing to do with those people.

Summerlove

I’m willing to believe that some people go no contact for no reason at all to do with the people they’ve estranged.

But I do believe those people are a small minority

I think that probably best describes my standpoint too.

What makes me sad is that I came here (if anyone remembers) with a very much 50/50 fault, thought process

"But I do believe those people are a small minority" -- and what is often 'sold' is the opposite to that. THAT is what I will never believe.

Obviously 'weird stuff' happens in relationships and I certainly accept/believe it could/does happen. Not every EP is 'that' parent although they mostly/nearly all claim to be. The math doesn't 'work'. That's one of my points.

I think what many are talking about may be perception. There are many people who perceive things that happened in their lives which did not. Some have illnesses which cause skewed thinking . Those have to be considered too when talking about estrangement.

HolyHannah If I had a MIL that smoked I would ask her to stop around my family.We would have a discussion. If she didn’t stop then I would tell her it was unhealthy for us to be around her . Then I wouldn’t see her.
This is what I meant about having a discussion before going NC.

Rhinestone -- I think it's safe to assume that a lot more is going on/has gone then just 'mom' walking into a marked 'No Smoking' house while smoking. Abusers break any boundary (regardless of how common sense it is) because they will not be told what to do by others, especially their children, adult or not.

It's rarely about one 'little thing' like smoking in this case. It's a pattern of behaviors. If you can manage to nip one habit away they'll push back elsewhere. It's never ending conflict and chaos.

It becomes death by 1000 cuts. I'm guessing here, but I think a lot of EP's recall the "final straw" moment and think, "Well that's not THAT big of a deal." and they may very well be correct in that. However it's the cumulative effect.

By the time someone goes No Contact they usually have a list of grievances (the letter 'full of lies' that gets promptly dismissed) and each one is a grain of sand. Alone they mean nothing. Put them all in a bag together and it gets HEAVY over time and No Contact is like putting down the bags, picking up new and not allowing someone else to refill the bags (weigh you down) with their abuse.

So this is why certain EP's have little credibility to Me. Did you have some kind of message from your EAC? Often the answer is yes. Did you read said letter? The answer is usually one of two, "Yes but it was nothing but lies and 'misunderstandings' and my child not interpreting things correctly." or "I just could not get through it! It was a punch in the face! Horrible and vicious abuse!" Did they call you toxic/unhealthy/abusive etc.? Then that's what they are making their life decisions on.

Maybe the parent is and maybe not but here we go again, the parent's 'opinion' matters little and dismissing those claims will lead to and keep the parent in No Contact.

Maybe my 'mom' is a victim but I AM TOO. She can see HER victim-hood clear as day but unless she acknowledges mine. She wants sympathy and love and acceptance of who she is and so do I. I used to give that to her that thinking, "One day she'll see how 'good' I am and love me/treat me with the same respect I treat her in return."

When you finally realize that is NEVER going to happen? No Contact often results.

Rhinestone -- "I think what many are talking about may be perception. There are many people who perceive things that happened in their lives which did not. Some have illnesses which cause skewed thinking . Those have to be considered too when talking about estrangement."

I have various mental health conditions and I know my family equates that to being "delusional" which is "people who perceive things that happened in their lives which did not."

So I was abused to the point of having mental health disorders (I was 'driven' nuts) and then because I am 'nuts' my abusers use that as the 'get out of jail free card'. "Hannah is 'nuts' so therefore is lying/making things up." How bloody convenient.

I am 'nuts'/mentally ill and I know it. I also know WHY -- Narcissistic Abuse. I didn't self-abuse/traumatize to acquire C-PTSD. If that exists someone will have to point me to information on that...

Of course to my 'family' I am "delusional" because I don't think they are awesome/perfect and don't feed their dysfunction/enable, so I must be the one who is 'wrong'. Again... Very convenient.

I'm also Autistic and have an 'elephants memory'... I can't "remember" something if it never occurred. That is a tad inconvenient because the line, "I don't remember THAT." from my 'mom' became silly when I could say, "Well... We all know I forget nothing sooo...."

“Until then, I will continue to believe that most estrangements are for very "good" reasons...”.

The above is your last sentence in yesterday’s post 20:20 HolyHannah, and I’m interested in your views on reconciliation following estrangement. What makes the good reason disappear to enable reconciliation?

I'm just 'wrong' because I won't believe in things I haven't seen.
Holy Hannah I was never saying you were wrong just to be clear.

I truly do understand what you say about evidence etc

My thoughts are that if "hearsay" becomes a reason to reject in itself then that applies across many many posts. I could write out example scenarios but I'm not going to because it is inevitable that it will ring bells with someone on here and that will be painful for them. That will make them angry, trigger upset, invalidate their experience. I have no desire to do that even inadvertently.

I believe that what you describe is your perspective about your mother. I believe Starblazes perspective about her mother. Why would I not? In the same way I believe that if an EP says they have reconciled with their AC and her AC said something then that is what she heard, her perspective and I believe that is her perspective.

I think that you dont want to discuss further and if I am right that is fine. I think Starblaze also does not wish to discuss further and if I am right, that is fine. I will keep "hearsay" as a concept in mind in future when reading posters stories on here and trying to comment constructively.

Holyhannah I'm just stuck on, if someone is willing to say that awful thing to me, twist my words and meanings, yell at me for perceived slights without asking for clarity, be all disengenuous and make little deniable digs or otherwise lump me in with all EAC as some sort of homogenous mass... I can't look at that and see a good parent

I am not sure where that fitted here Starblaze. Please could you clarify for me. I am not asking the question to be nasty or "clever" or dig, I genuinely am not sure of the context of your comments. No worries if you prefer not to engage

"What makes the good reason disappear to enable reconciliation?" That's a very good question Pantglas.

Good posts Madgran.

HolyHannah I’m sorry you were abused and dismissed by your mother. That is never good. You don’t have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable but were you abused physically too?
And again this is where perception comes into play. Sometimes a family member will put labels on children and then other family members will do the same thus making that child a scapegoat .

I have an X husband who was verbally abusive to my ES. Even though I divorced him because he was physically abusive he continued with the verbal. He was always ranting and raving and dismissing both my children’s comments on everything from sports to anything they had an opinion on. They were never validated by him.
Now my ES has lived with him for two years and is verbally abusing my X by doing to my X as was done to him as a child. My ES has not held a job and has let go of all but two friends. He is now involved in Quanon. He was screaming at my mother because she doesn’t believe in it. Not sure if you all know about this global cult but it is made up of conspiracy theories about people in politics and film stars who they say abuse children physically. What is horrifying to me is that my son has identified with his abuser and estranged the wrong parent.
Abuse does horrible things to people . I do believe my son has a mental illness and his perception that I stuck up for my DD when he and my DD had a fight has made him estrange from me. So that’s what I mean about people having issues and the wrong perception about really happened. And even though there were witnesses to my NOT sticking up for my DD he sees it in his reality.

It's a nightmare situation for you Rhinestone.

What is horrifying to me is that my son has identified with his abuser and estranged the wrong parent. That is horrifying, when you can see the 'power' that the abuser has and now, you are seeing the victim becoming the perpetrator.

You're quite right about how a persons issues can create the wrong perception/truth/reality, not just for themselves but sometimes for the person they're sharing their life with.

I always look at it as 2 seperate or overlapping issues.

Estrangement: No Contact with child because of their feelings towards you.

Parental alientation: No Contact because of the other parent/carers feeling's towards you.

Its possible for it to be both so, if the opportunity is there, I'd always advise, talking through any issues between you both and not arguing against the other partner/caregiver... Just proving them wrong by example.

Rhinestone - what you have described is the cycle of abuse. A mixture of behavioural patterns picked up in childhood and coping mechanisms adopted in response to the environment.

Coping strategies can manifest as dysfunctional and toxic, very often because the individual is trying to protect themselves from further hurt.

It is complicated and difficult to unpick.

I have heard the EAC here speak about “breaking the cycle” with their own children. NC is often necessary to achieve this. As is the individual’s awareness of their past abuse, the patterns, their current behaviours and being able to hold themselves accountable. Accountability is key.

This is why I was so shocked to see EAC being told recently that “harping on” about their abuse is “unhealthy” and damaging to their families.

On the contrary, the awareness and accountability demonstrated by the EAC is in fact, very healthy. Not acknowledging the abuse and perpetuating the cycle is harmful.

Your son has not managed to break the cycle. It is a sad situation indeed.

What is horrifying to me is that my son has identified with his abuser and estranged the wrong parent

You have described a complex backstory to your estrangement and for your son, things will not be as straightforward as that.

GG65 -- Breaking cycles is an uphill task when, as the Scapegoat, you are seen as 100% of the problem. That's a role no one deserves especially a minor child with no 'power' to change the dynamic.

I read this -- “To me, one truth is that we lose our role as moms and become relics of the past, so our kids can become the drivers in their own lives.” -- I believe this is what my ED wants. She has basically severed our relationship, so she can be her own “driver.”

I wonder if that EP understands what she just said in that because it sure isn't a healthy mentality from my POV.