Overcomplicated

Message deleted by Gransnet as it repeated previously deleted post. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I'm sure you'll accept that to intervene in a situation you are not directly involved with, with someone who is not married to your AC and when you're not struggling to cope with an increasingly difficult and upsetting situation, where you're relationship with your AC appears to becoming distant and you're having virtually no contact with your only GC, is totally different rosecarmel.

Thank you Sparkling and Chewbacca I've just got Mr. S. to check I don't have a target pinned on my back because that's where the 'knives' are going in isn't it. It is bullying and bullies being the cowards that they are don't act alone and come at you from behind.

It's the sheer hypocrisy that gets me and TBH sometimes makes me laugh, especially when we're constantly being bombarded with links to the worse examples of EP's, lists of things that EP's have apparently said and constant references to narcissists by the very people who are bullies themselves.

"Really, you need to take a long hard look at yourself" yes but they wont will they Chewbacca which is why they project all of their negativity onto others, so they wont have to recognise it in themselves.

rosecarmel I suppose that is something.

I think I could have forgiven my mum had she at least come to an internal realisation and changed her behaviour. I have to live with what others close to her think of me anyway but at least we could have worked on a positive future relationship?

I don't know and I don't know if giving it too much head's space would be good for me because at the time of our estrangement her behaviour was still escalating.

Starblaze -- That's just it. They ramp up the abuse, we get more and more frustrated. We finally say enough and when we walk away? Poof -- They are in instant victim...

Just like the article I posted. "They walked away! They are using the 'silent treatment' They are the evil Narcissist!"

Yeah...

The funny part is they always say, "We are wiling to listen and try to work things out..." but part of "working things out" means owing your own part and saying the 'magic words'.

Some people, like my 'mom', will NEVER utter those 'words' and until they can figure out a way to say, "You're right. I was out of line there... I'm sorry I hurt you." then nothing is going to change.

LOL -- Gotta love defacing family photos... Very mature.

Smileless2012

I'm sure you'll accept that to intervene in a situation you are not directly involved with, with someone who is not married to your AC and when you're not struggling to cope with an increasingly difficult and upsetting situation, where you're relationship with your AC appears to becoming distant and you're having virtually no contact with your only GC, is totally different rosecarmel.

Thank you Sparkling and Chewbacca I've just got Mr. S. to check I don't have a target pinned on my back because that's where the 'knives' are going in isn't it. It is bullying and bullies being the cowards that they are don't act alone and come at you from behind.

It's the sheer hypocrisy that gets me and TBH sometimes makes me laugh, especially when we're constantly being bombarded with links to the worse examples of EP's, lists of things that EP's have apparently said and constant references to narcissists by the very people who are bullies themselves.

I responded in written form to an incident that was described in writing-

I certainly wasn't there when the event occurred- Nonetheless, I do understand having been in a similar circumstance-

Which is what was asked- And I answered-

Starblaze

rosecarmel I suppose that is something.

I think I could have forgiven my mum had she at least come to an internal realisation and changed her behaviour. I have to live with what others close to her think of me anyway but at least we could have worked on a positive future relationship?

I don't know and I don't know if giving it too much head's space would be good for me because at the time of our estrangement her behaviour was still escalating.

I understand- My being the lesser in regards to family members is ingrained- Mom is gone, therefore, she will not be doing any explaining of the pattern put in place- So it's up to me to spread the word and/or not engage-

I carry my mother's heart in my heart, regardless-

Well I don't see any similarity in the situation you've described and mine rosecarmel. Responding in writing to an incident you didn't even witness, the details of which were given to you in writing, has no comparison to a face to face confrontation forced on you, by someone in your own home who pushed their way in.

Smileless2012

Well I don't see any similarity in the situation you've described and mine rosecarmel. Responding in writing to an incident you didn't even witness, the details of which were given to you in writing, has no comparison to a face to face confrontation forced on you, by someone in your own home who pushed their way in.

I indicated the situation was similar, I did not go into detail- I was asked a question, I respectfully answered-

We had different responses to a common problem-

We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel.

Smileless2012

We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel.

No, I don't have to agree with those terms-

Smileless - We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel

No, I don't have to agree with those terms

....Oh for goodness sake! ???

Madgran77

*Smileless - We'll have to agree to disagree that our situations were similar rosecarmel*

No, I don't have to agree with those terms

....Oh for goodness sake! ???

I know, I know .. When dogs don't perform cheap parlor tricks on command the audience sometimes triple-rolls their eyes .. slot-machine style ..

Oh dear rosecarmel.

I know what you mean Madgran; no one needs to invalidate those who constantly cry "invalidation" when they do such a good job of it themselves.

I know, I know .. When dogs don't perform cheap parlor tricks on command the audience sometimes triple-rolls their eyes .. slot-machine style

It was raised eyes at the silliness and the pettiness. Nothing to do with cheap parlor tricks or dogs or slot machines!

Agreeing to disagree is a recognised respectful way to stop a conversation descending into an argument yet again, as keeps happening on this thread! It's not "validating", not "not validating", it's not "cruel", it's not "unkind", it's not "dismissive" , it's not "laughing out loud" , it's not "behaving like a child rather than an adult they are supposed to be" ..or all the other things that are a matter of concern for many posters apparently, all with different experiences and perspectives!

It is just agreeing that you don't agree respectfully and moving on rather than creating argument that might become some of those things above.

To dismiss it...what label would one give that?

Not debating this, just so tired of the circular arguments, the digs, the unpleasantness, the accusations, the endless point scoring, the ignoring some posters instead of discussing respectfully! So so tired of it.

Yes I could just give up and go away. But the subjects are potentially interesting, the posters are potentially interesting to talk to, I would like to offer help if I can from my perspective and experiences, I would like to hear others advice and support, I would like to give support if I can, I would like to chat, to discuss, to learn...I am beginning to think I am just expecting too much, nothing ever seems to change!!

What a shame!

Madgran well said! I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a rebuttal to “let’s agree to disagree”. That’s just wanting to keep an argument going for the sake of arguing.

MamaBear20 Thankyou.

It would seem so! . Such a shame!

MamaBear20 -- My 'mom' would use that line as a way to say, "I'm 'right' and you are wrong and I am 'bored' with trying to explain to you how wrong you are." So I have a different perspective on that sentiment/statement. It really depends on the manner it is meant. It can either be healthy or unhealthy.

I felt rather drawn back this evening. It was a busy exciting day and I couldn't wind down.

There is a lot of discussion on what validation is and a lot of discussion on what abuse is.

May I say that I know from discussion with my daughter she does not view her childhood as abusive at all but loving and secure. Perhaps that is what allowed her to fight me when I became too attached and overbearing to her as an adult. I believe the word enmeshed was bandied about but that is a complicated term for what is really a rather simple problem. I refused to let go even a little.

Of invalidation, when my daughter was railing against me as a young adult I offered her no validation. I did not believe that behaviour that came from love could cause her pain. Grief counselling taught me the truth. Of course I could validate my daughter when I became aware that she was speaking the truth.

Validating the truth is why I have my daughter and my lovely grandchildren. My daughter for her part always knew my pain at her estrangement was the truth, just that my belief I was not responsible was not. That does not mean I lied, just that I was not privvy to the truth.

I suppose when one does not validate another it is because they do not believe what they hear to be the truth. Then it comes back to my simple tool. Would it cause harm to another to deny their truth when it has no relationship to you? Is it necessary harm? Or is it bullying?

Of course one absolutely cannot validate a lie but you must be sure it is not the truth first.

Once again I know I cannot hope to follow the nuance and depth here. My deep and sincere hope that those who have suffered may find peace

It seems reasonable on a public forum to just take it as a way to accept you dont agree with each other and move on. I wont bother to repeat all I said above.

Somewhat different to a fraught relationship In "real life", where how its said would definitely be relevant.

Holyhannah I hadn't thought of it like that before but yes!

This is purely a comment on my mum again because we are in estrangement and all sorts is bound to bring her to the fore. I can't believe I'm having to disclaimer what I say but here we are. I'm not adding disclaimers to everything though sigh

But yes, my mum could use that phrase as an invalidation tool to get her point across while not really listening to mine at all.

Its no good saying "here is what I think in huge detail" and then not allowing the other person to fully explain their position by giving them 30 seconds, overruling them and then saying "let's just agree to disagree". It's a totally unfair power balance.

I'd never ever even considered it until now! Yes that phrase can be a positive thing to stop people falling out but it can also be a powerful tool to invalidate and silence someone.

Bonus points my mum rolling her eyes, yawning and looking away and making it clear my thoughts on any subject were not important at all.

I am now going to be paranoid about using that phrase forever lol

Excellent post @20.54 Madgran; well said.

Madgran77

*I know, I know .. When dogs don't perform cheap parlor tricks on command the audience sometimes triple-rolls their eyes .. slot-machine style*

It was raised eyes at the silliness and the pettiness. Nothing to do with cheap parlor tricks or dogs or slot machines!

Agreeing to disagree is a recognised respectful way to stop a conversation descending into an argument yet again, as keeps happening on this thread! It's not "validating", not "not validating", it's not "cruel", it's not "unkind", it's not "dismissive" , it's not "laughing out loud" , it's not "behaving like a child rather than an adult they are supposed to be" ..or all the other things that are a matter of concern for many posters apparently, all with different experiences and perspectives!

It is just agreeing that you don't agree respectfully and moving on rather than creating argument that might become some of those things above.

To dismiss it...what label would one give that?

Not debating this, just so tired of the circular arguments, the digs, the unpleasantness, the accusations, the endless point scoring, the ignoring some posters instead of discussing respectfully! So so tired of it.

Yes I could just give up and go away. But the subjects are potentially interesting, the posters are potentially interesting to talk to, I would like to offer help if I can from my perspective and experiences, I would like to hear others advice and support, I would like to give support if I can, I would like to chat, to discuss, to learn...I am beginning to think I am just expecting too much, nothing ever seems to change!!

What a shame!

It's up to me to determine what I agree to- I'm not ashamed of that- If declining to be told what to agree to requires a label anyone is free to create one of they choose-

As far as change is concerned, it's occuring- No friction, no growth- I see plenty of both-

rosecarmel -- I agree. It's just too close to gas-lighting for Me when someone tells Me how I should think/feel or what I should believe.

I am certainly not going to "agree to disagree" with someone who is trying to tell me the Earth is flat. "Agreeing to 'disagree'" with that is validating a falsehood and gives the Flat Earther the idea that their opinion that the world is 'Flat' legitimacy. It's called enabling. I don't enable falsehoods and I don't buy lies.

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I agree. It's just too close to gas-lighting for Me when someone tells Me how I should think/feel or what I should believe.

I am certainly not going to "agree to disagree" with someone who is trying to tell me the Earth is flat. "Agreeing to 'disagree'" with that is validating a falsehood and gives the Flat Earther the idea that their opinion that the world is 'Flat' legitimacy. It's called enabling. I don't enable falsehoods and I don't buy lies.

It's simply a phrase / way of thinking that's dated- It was tried, and believed to be true for a while, but no longer has a place in the conversation- Whoever says it first determines when the discussion ends, and does so by dictating what the other person agrees to-

It has a creepy superior/inferior dynamic- Which I accept has been accepted, practiced and preferred around the world for a very, very long time-

It might seem like a drop in the bucket .. A small change ..
And yet ..