Putting up with the unacceptable

Starblaze

Summerlove I would see it as a parents responsibility to not let people who are engaging in negative behaviour around their children. I wouldn't see anything wrong there.

For example "if you don't stop this behaviour which is harming me and may harm my children, either indirectly by harming me or directly by them witnessing that behaviour, then I can't let you see them"

What if I say I’m treating you fairly, and you think I’m abusive?
You think you are protecting children, I think you are using them as pawns.

Most people would agree that the children in this scenario are not being used as pawns, somebody who is abusive and doesn’t view themselves that way will absolutely say that they are in fact being used as pawns.

So who Is right? Who makes the call?

What if I say I’m treating you fairly, and you think I’m abusive? You think you are protecting children, I think you are using them as pawns.

Exactly this. Who is right. It doesn't help that the definition of abuse changes. Some people from older generations (my parents included) believe that if you weren't beaten or molested, then you weren't abused. Younger generations are more likely to stand up for their child's emotional health as well. It is seen as just as important as physical health.

I believe that if someone thinks your behaviour is abusive (even if you don't) then you would be in the wrong. Some people think smacking kids is fine, some consider it abuse. If the parent think its abuse, then it is not for you to do. I also don't think this is the same scenario at all as my great aunt that was forced to give all of her money to son and dil to see grandkids. There was never an abuse accusation.

Many abusers don't consider themselves abusive (or they think that they deserve it). My parents certainly don't think they were abusive (because abuse is beating your kids).

If your AC is telling you that you are abusive and gives examples (not lying to give you a bad name) then you need to examine your behaviour. It doesn't matter if you don't think what you did is abusive, they are telling you that you have hurt them.

Here is just one checklist of mental abuse www.healthline.com/health/signs-of-mental-abuse

So who Is right? Who makes the call?

If someone tells you you are abusive, gives examples and links them to checklists of abuse, then you been abusive. This however doesn't ever mean you are a bad person. We all have flaws. A coworker realised he had been gaslighting his gf when shown one of these checklists. He apologised so bad and promised to never do it again. It shook him.

It depends on our reactions. If your reaction is 'you're too sensitive,' 'be a man' then you are still being abusive.

This goes both ways too. AC can be abusive to parents as well.

I agree with you ironflower.

If I were told I was being abusive, I hope I’d be able to be introspective. Many will dig in their heels.

Some people do not like being told “no”.

I just find that people often use someone of using the children as pawns whether or not that’s actually the case. In your aunts situation, it absolutely sounds that way, but day today, I feel most of the time it’s the parents doing what they feel is the best for their children.

I just find that people often use someone of using the children as pawns whether or not that’s actually the case

It's really sad when others make claims of being the victim (when they're not) because it really takes away from the real victims.
Example false claims of assault, abuse. This really hurts real victims who are then not believed. The real GPs out there that have their grandchildren being used as pawns are doubted because of the abusive grandparents claiming that their children staying away is using grandchildren as pawns

Ironflower and Summerlove -- I think at the point that someone actually looks at you and says, "You are abusive." there is probably a LOT questionable about your behavior and you should do some serious self-reflecting or seeking a therapist to understand WHY someone would say that to you.

If someone just walks out of your life? That might be a strong clue that there is something 'going on' and perhaps some more self-reflection is required.

I agree (as it's the truth in my case) that most No Contact situations are not the parents "using the kids as pawns".

Ironflower -- "It's really sad when others make claims of being the victim (when they're not) because it really takes away from the real victims." -- This x1000.

"The real GPs out there that have their grandchildren being used as pawns are doubted because of the abusive grandparents claiming that their children staying away is using grandchildren as pawns." -- Again 100% agree. I cannot imagine how disheartening that must be for GP's that truly are being extorted and manipulated using the grand-children because false victims muddy the waters.

Certainly my 'parents' and in-laws would agree that's what husband and I are doing...

Presumably if parents are keeping their children away from their GP's because they're worried about their safety, they wont be demanding financial assistance, that things the children need are paid for by the GP's or that GP's provide free child care.

When these things are being demanded and the GP's are told or it's implied that they wont see their GC unless they comply, it's a clear case of the children being used as pawns and the abuse of the GP's.

We know a couple who are treated appallingly by their two married daughters, despite doing everything for them. I have heard the girls speak to them like they are dirt. They put up with it as they are afraid of not seeing their grandchildren.

That's terrible Kate but unfortunately not uncommon.

It's very sad Smileless. Not my business but it makes my blood boil.

It would make mine boil too Kate, TBH it is doing and I don't even know your poor friends.

Kate1949 -- "We know a couple who are treated appallingly by their two married daughters, despite doing everything for them. I have heard the girls speak to them like they are dirt. They put up with it as they are afraid of not seeing their grandchildren."

Unfortunately that might make your friends co-dependent or enablers... None of which is healthy for the family dynamic and most of all the minor children/grand-children caught in the middle. If the parent's are dysfunctional/abusive toward the grand-parents and the Grands accept/normalize abuse towards THEM just to see their grand-children as 'normal'? All of the 'adults' are doing wrong to the minor children... None of the 'adults' are true victims and while they (the 'adults') are competing for their own victim-hood? The real/true victims/the children that get introduced to this drama? Ignored....

That's how the cycle of abuse works...

I don't agree that Kate's friends are "competing for their own victim-hood" or that any GP's who put up with the appalling behaviour of an AC, so they can maintain their relationship with their GC, are either.

In cases such as these, the GP's and the children are all victims of the parents controlling, manipulative and abusive behaviour.

So often on the estrangement threads, especially if GP's are considering going to court to get contact with their GC, we are told that it's up to the parents, that the children are their legal responsibility. So let's not when it suits, absolve parents of that responsibility in a case such as this.

Gransnet posts about family relationships show how very various and individualistic these are among British families.

In traditional societies the proper traditional behaviours steer behaviour, not individuals' feelings.

There cones a point when enough is enough and the constant bullying, disrespect and impounded worthlessness and demeaning becomes too much to bear and with what little self respect and dignity remains you stand up and say 'no more'.
And you lose everything and all you built over a decade with your grandchildren in the blink of an eye.
I've sent a beautiful bouquet of flowers, presents through lockdown for my grandchildren all unacknowledged.
It's pure luck that I know my gc are okay.
It had to be done and I actually think my AD enjoys and feels I deserve the hurt and suffering I endure and in so many words has said as much.

It took a great deal of courage nananet for you to stand up for yourself at the risk of losing "everything and all you built over a decade with your grandchildren in the blink of an eye".

I'm so sorry that your worse fears have been realised.

Your GC will I'm sure always remember the relationship they had with you and there's every chance that when they are old enough they'll be in touch.

Who knows how much damage your AD may have done to the relationship with her own children, by denying them their GM. It may well be something she comes to regret.

Someone has made a comment that by taking myself out of the situation my gc will suffer in another way.
No. By removing myself I stopped the cycle of abuse that has spanned the generations and hopefully protected my youngest gc from the emotional abuse his older sister began to show signs of - having to deal with a tense situation between myself and their mother. Her little mind was in turmoil.
There are two other sets of gp. My AD is now reliant on them for 'childcare' as she'd call it and I suspect her attitude will have had to change, hopefully for the better. There is also a child minder I was told was like a gp, so my gc have a good support network and are no longer under any pressure to deal with things they couldn't possibly understand.

Furthermore and importantly, my gc will no longer be witnessing their mothers treatment of me, a point I made to my AC, that if I continued to accept it they would think that behaviour by their mother was okay and quite possibly follow her example, the cycle would continue. I hope in making the choice I have I am doing the best I can for my gc who mean the world to me.

nananet that must have been an incredibly difficult decision. Children are emotional sponges. I hope that one day things change for the better.

I think you have made the best choice for your GC nananet and done all that you can to break this cycle of abuse

Great post Smileless.
I havent posted on here for a long time, but the son I wrote about then never did get back in touch, it's been a year and a half now.
My other son lived here with his wife for 8 months and it did grind me down as he was abusive and demanding. Eventually I insisted they move out , but he is now not speaking to me. He has mental health issues and a social worker is involved, also was put on presciption meds that made him aggressive. He is very controlling of his wife and reads all her messages. She has no one in this country apart from us. I was hoping that they would be so much happier after getting their own place, but my son was more hostile than ever so we left (last friday) and haven't been back.

I do miss my Grandson. But it isn't going to help him hearing his Dad be aggressive either. Hopefully their social worker can help sort them out as I didn't want to lose another child and another Grandchild...

It's good to see you back Lavazza1st but upsetting to know that nothing has changed with one of your son's and your relationship with your other son has deteriorated.

It must have been a very difficult decision to ask him to move out with wife but living with some one who is abusive and demanding is intolerable.

Your poor d.i.l., living in a coercive controlling relationship. There's a lot pining on their social worker being able to help in this situation which isn't good for your d.i.l. or GC.

I'm so sorry you are having to go through this. The fear of becoming estranged from this son, having already been estranged by his brother must be over powering.

Hi Smileless, it's sad but even with covid, there has been no contact with my eldest son. He is close to his dad though, who hates me for escaping his coercive control and has spread lies about me. I would not be surprised if he poisoned my son against me as this is the sort of thing he would do.

I feel it's nature over nurture. I escaped that abusive relationship with young boys, who I didn't want to grow up with that example of how to treat a woman. Ive done my best and they have a stepdad that's been a good role model too, but despite it all my other son is really controlling. He's hit his last two girlfriends. I doubt his wife knows this as he met and married her abroad.

I know, it's not good. I just don't know what to do about it. I am not missing being attacked verbally every day. It didn't matter what kind thing I did for him, he was aggressive and abusive. It almost felt like the more kind I was, the more abusive he got. He told me he didn't respect me and it showed. When I asked him why, he only said "because you're divorced" He does blame me that he's not close to his Dad, but he doesnt realise that he already wasn't close to him when we left because his Dad idolised his elder brother (and still does) I think a part of him realises it, but is lashing out. He must be in a lot of pain, but has refused to engage with therapy and blames me for things which he is actually doing himself ( and I am not!) Projecting, I guess. I'm sad for the way the relationship is, but it's become one sided and I don't know how to fix it.

I've been doing all the kind things and giving, he's been abusive and taking. But now he's not living here I think he's sulking. I just feel I can't fix it and can't cope with the abusiveness either.

No, you can't fix this Lava only your son can and in order to do so, he needs to accept that he has a problem and seek the help that he needs.

I think it's extremely likely that his father has, and continues to poison your son against you. It's a common theme with abusers. They don't like their 'victims' to be around those who may be able to help them see that how they're being treated is wrong.

In your son's case, his father it seems wants him to be just like him, for your son to have coercive control over his own family, just as he did. Another form of abuse.

It's a shame but understandable that your d.i.l. is unable to remove herself and her son from this coercive and abusive relationship. That may be enough to make your son take a good hard long look at himself. The prospect of losing his wife and son maybe what he needs to seek help.