Putting up with the unacceptable

MamaBear20,
I'm in the exact same position as you except it's my parents. Cutting off toxic parents is a common occurrence, however it's not the only occurrence. Toxic grandparents were once toxic adult children.

My parents sound a lot like your in-laws. Constant tantrums and silent treatments when they don't get their way. I also get accused of keeping my kids away from loving grandparents (lol)

MamaBear and Ironflower -- Me too. No Contact means they aren't giving anything and We aren't receiving or demanding anything... Expect respect as people and parents of course.

If 'parents' can't manage a mutual adult relationship with their AC (regardless of who is creating the issue) then there is little hope of a happy/healthy relationship with the grand-children.

As for your Great Aunt, what a horrible situation. I hate abuse and manipulation regardless of who is doing it. DiL should be ashamed of herself.

Ironflower “ Toxic grandparents were once toxic adult children.“ What a great point! My MIL certainly had other problematic interpersonal relationships long before I came along. She had cut off her inlaws when my DH was a boy (FILs entire side of the family). She was very upset when DH and I facilitated a reconnection with them. When DH asked his uncle why the fall out, he said he really didn’t know. MIL had a long convoluted tale that painted herself as the victim.

MamaBear -- I admit, I didn't really grasp what Ironflower said until you highlighted it... Yes! I'm sure my grands would claim my 'mom' was a "woman who flies on a broom"!

They would have been/are correct there... That didn't/doesn't automatically make THEM not 'witches' themselves... My family dysfunction was top down and as a bonus for Me? Both sides of my biological 'family'...

But that's how my generational abuse 'worked'... My 'mom' -- "I love my kids better/more then my parents loved me!" Me -- "Well, that's fantastic and convenient for YOU. You jumped over a bar a turtle could leap."

I know my dad got some of his traits from his mother and father. Their 'neglect' is also likely a reason for his emotional problems. My dad and his brother were raised by their stepdad and their much younger half sister was very much the favourite and golden child.

The long story of my grandparents:
TRIGGER WARNING

My grandma was hungarian. She was also royalty technically. Her mum received a royalty pension (Austrian royal family). She was abused as a child, her mother would deliberately send her to men as a little girl for favours.
She met a man, married and had a baby. He was jewish. Her sister sold them out to the nazis and he was taken away, never to be seen again.

She met another man. He refused to raise another man's child. He forced her to send away her child, she gave him to her sister. They had two boys together. My uncle and then my dad. When my grandma was pregnant, he was in a motorcycle crash. When he realised that he wasn't going to make it, he tried to get someone to kill my grandma so she wouldn't live without him (yup this man is my biological grandfather). He didn't succeed. She remarried again, had a girl. This man, my grandpa, was wealthy and very opposed to communism. Unfortunately during the russian takeover he was a big enemy of russia and so they had to flee. They came to Australia and worked hard until they passed away (Oldest child stayed in Hungary with aunt).

My grandma was mean, arrogant and strong-willed (example she would constantly say she should just kill herself when someone wouldn't do what she wanted). I never enjoyed being around her, I don't think she ever hugged me or showed affection (she also didn't speak good english) but she went through so much that I really can't judge her. My dad treated her like a toddler, he made demands and she had to follow. She had zero control.

My dad and my uncle are not nice people. They were both extremely arrogant, stubborn with severe emotional issues and a superiority complex. My uncle passed away recently (his funeral was the exact day my baby girl was born in February). I don't think my dad and uncle were treated very well growing up. No affection or love so I guess that's why they could never show affection, also likely the genetics from their pos father. Overall I just feel really sorry for all of them, but I can't give up my happiness (and my kids) to try and make my dad happy.

Ironflower -- My thoughts are with You. Needless to say your story is 'as advertised' and I am not easily "triggered". After I have some time I hope I can give a more helpful reply...

May the Force Be With You.

Ironflower My great aunt unfortunately is still going through this after 19 years. Her son (intellectual disability) married a lady and it was fine until they had kids. Her DIL demanded my great aunt fill their fridge, buy the kids school supplies, make their car payment etc. if she ever tried to say no DIL would respond with "I guess the kids can't come and see you then." She has given them everything. All of her money goes to them. Her husband (my uncle) passed away 13 years ago. Oldest GC is now 18 and so she can have a relationship outside of the parents but she still pays because she's afraid that the children will go without. She has a good bond with her gc but she has nothing to show for it

*Ironflower ...that is sad and difficult for your great aunt. An exact example of the original topic of this this thread.

I am wondering if her background has made her more vulnerable to such abuse, unable to find a way to deal with her DILs abuse? That is, if she comes from the awful experiences that you describe regarding your families background?
I suppose that as she has a good bond with her grandchildren, that is something to show for her suffering such abuse, but I wonder if she also fears losing that bond, if she stops paying?

My great aunt is maternal in relation so no relation to the mess that is my dad's family. I think my great aunt had trouble in that her husband also had an intellectual disability. He always wanted to give in. She has a daughter too but she unfortunately was unable to have children, even tried IVF. I guess it came down to they were her only grandchildren and she was very lonely. Guess who got pretty much everything when she sold her house.. eyeroll

Thanks for explaining ironflower. What a sad life for her!

Your great aunt's sad story is what this thread is about Ironflower, P's who put up with their abusive AC so they don't lose their GC.

P's who have been estranged by their AC and consequently their GC aren't being subjected to the controlling, manipulative and abusive behaviour being discussed here.

Ironflower I don't know how to put into words but your family history is so sad and interesting.

So many family patterns are repeated so when someone is able to stand up and say "It stops here with me" and makes a thorough attempt at making sure that happens I'm always in awe of them.

It must feel like being 'caught between the devil and the deep blue sea' when the decision to put a stop to abuse from an AC may way result in estrangement and losing GC.

The thing is, just because a family are estranged, that kind of behaviour from whoever is the initiator will continue elsewhere.

If the perpetrator is an AC, taking yourself as a grandparent out of the equation helps you, but the GC will still be suffering it in a different form. I wouldn't want to lose contact for that reason also. My GS is my first priority.

I totally understand that GagaJo and it must 'help' when there's already an established relationship with the GC concerned.

In our case, we'd had very little contact with our GS and he was just 8 months old the last time we saw him. We did ask to see him but with no reciprocal communication there was nothing we could do.

MamaBear20

My MIL has accused me of using my kids as pawns against her, but from my perspective I’m keeping them safe from a toxic and abusive grandparent. I’ve never asked her for anything other than to stop behaving so badly with the tantrums she throws when she doesn’t get her way. How could she interpret that as me using my kids as pawns?

This is what I dont understand, in your example you are asking for good behaviour. I don’t see that as using the kids as pawns

In ironflowers aunts example, I do.

However, is asking for appropriate behaviours using the kids as pawns? Forcing eggshells? What is the line?

Summerlove I would see it as a parents responsibility to not let people who are engaging in negative behaviour around their children. I wouldn't see anything wrong there.

For example "if you don't stop this behaviour which is harming me and may harm my children, either indirectly by harming me or directly by them witnessing that behaviour, then I can't let you see them"

Asking for appropriate behaviour isn't using children as pawns or forcing eggshell walking MamaBear.

Protecting children from a toxic and abusive grandparent is not the same as a GP being denied their GC because of the abusive and sometimes toxic behaviour of their AC and/or their partner.

The topic under discussion is P's/GP's who tolerate unacceptable behaviour in order to maintain the relationship they have with their GC.

It isn't about P's wanting to protect their children, it's about P's using their children to get what they want from their children's GP's.

As posters converse, and threads evolve, it’s unrealistic to expect every post to address the “topic under discussion”.

This is a mixed board with both EPs and EAC and will attract different perspectives.

I imagine some EAC will have been accused of treating their parents badly or “using the kids as pawns” and will interpret the thread in this way.

Everyone is (should be) allowed to express their views, based on their own interpretation, freely...

This is a touchy point I'm about to make. It applies to me (and maybe some of you, too, BUT please be aware, I'm not directing this at anyone, other than myself).

One of the questions that came to me while thinking about this topic for this thread is HOW our AC came to be the way they are. I don't mean a specific issue such as parents being cruel or denying love, but HOW children develop in a way that encourages them to think it is acceptable to manipulate their parents and use their children as bargaining chips.

I am aware that I was very flawed as a parent. I didn't really want children and only had a child because my husband wanted a family. He wanted two, but I drew the line at one when his alcoholism became obvious. I've always been bookish and academically inclined and didn't enjoy having to be the only active parent (despite wanting children, ex husband was lazy and left it all to me). Financially, my daughter had everything she could have wanted, at least until the divorce. After the divorce I made a whole bunch of mistakes but also tried to over compensate for the divorce. I even protected her from the truth about her dad until she was old enough and saw it for herself.

I also think that she is a mix of personality like her paternal aunt and grandmother. It would certainly explain a lot about her. BUT I'm also very aware this could be using this as an excuse to let myself off the hook.

Ultimately, I did my best. It wasn't always great because I wasn't a natural mother. I'm a teacher by temperament, not a mum. At the end of the day, my grandson is here and I love him and as I've said before, am determined to try to help him have a good life.

I agree that there will be parents who have unfairly been accused of using their children when they've been wanting to protect them GagaJo. Just as there will be parents/GP's who have been unfairly accused of inappropriate behaviour as a reason for not being allowed to see their GC.

In both of the aforementioned the result is that rightly or wrongly, GP's and their GC are being denied their relationship.

Then we have GP's who are not being denied the relationship they have with their GC, but are expected to 'jump through hoops' or have it taken away.

Three different scenarios, two of which result in GP's having no contact with their GC and one seeing GP's manipulated and their GC used as pawns.

GagaJo I found your comment kinda lovely in a way. Not all women are maternal and it's very brave of you to say all that.

My mum was abusive, mostly emotional and neglect of my physical needs etc growing up. Her father was an alcoholic and verbally abusive and her mum struggled with a lot and was very shut down. That's probably one factor. Another is traumatic things that happened to my mum outside of the family which is another factor. Then there was not a lot of support for my mum available as other family were well off and she wouldn't have anything to do with them because she didn't feel good enough. That's only what I do know.

Many factors made my mum. That's only my situation though

Starblaze -- I too was trying to find a good reply for GagaJo.

It is difficult to self-reflect and see where your own actions could have had consequences and I found the honesty heartening.

GagaJo -- Normally the statement of, "I did my best." makes me 'eye roll' but given your personal reflection I think you very likely did which is obviously truly better then a downright abusive parent like Starblaze and I grew up with.

There is a large span between being an abusive parent and a flawed/"normal parent".

Holyhannah I definitely struggled to find words to express myself there. Also agree with you completely

All normal parents are flawed; all normal people are flawed and it's nice to see the distinction being made between normal/flawed parents and abusive parents.

Self reflection may result in for example an EP seeing that their relationship with their child had negative consequences, resulting in estrangement, or being abused by their AC when they became an adult.

On the other hand self reflection may result in for example, an EP seeing that their relationship with their child flawed, as all relationships are, was not the reason they became estranged or a reason for the abuse they are receiving.

I've read posts from EAC where it's been said they did their best to have a relationship with the parent who abused them, and have never felt the need to roll my eyes.

There was nothing in your post @ 17.35 that made me touchy GagaJo. You have honestly shared your story which should be respected just as anyone else's should be respected.

It is not for us to judge especially if that judgement stems from our own biased position, based purely on our own experience.