Your money or your grandsons

"you should find a way to get on with your mum" it's awful isn't it, the things that some people say. Like 'life's too short' and 'if you want to see your son and GC you have to get on with your d.i.l.'. None of them take into account how bad that person they think you should get on with, may be.

If a decision had been made for your mum to see your children, it's a decision that would have been made by the courts and not that one policeman, as it's what is in the best interests of the children that takes precedent.

For your mum to have had any chance of success, she'd have had to prove there was an existing meaningful relationship in place with the children before you estranged, so it seems highly unlikely she'd have been successful in obtaining a contact order.

I hope that jGran has sought proper legal advice and is knows which direction she needs follow to put some space between her and her manipulative offspring. It would be good if she could come back at some point and update us.

I just love that so many are quick to keep saying son is 'wrong' and insulting him.

A lot of people tout the line that there are "two sides to every story" and yet the narrative is that son is being (add list of insults) without considering any alternatives... His "side" of 'the story'.

Perhaps the mom is in the habit of making promises and not keeping them...

Perhaps mom has said in the past, "If you do... then I'll give you..." and when the child has done what the parent needed/wanted a new hurdle/bar to receive 'the thing' was added.

Abusive parents DO 'that sort of thing' and when the AC finally gets tired of trying to please/pass/jump over bars? They get tired and often walk away.

My own 'mom' had a tendency toward the 'moving goal posts' and at a certain point the parent/abuser can play "that card" one time too many and their AC says, "Enough." and walks away.

At that point, the AC is tired of playing 'the game' because there's literally NOTHING "in it" for Them. There's no love to be had, respect as an autonomous mature adult to be given or a hope for the situation/relationship to improve. The AC has learned "their place" and 'that place' is as a perpetual "lesser" to their 'parent' so they walk away...

And then as the final chant -- "Write that ungrateful child out of your will/estate!!! They don't deserve ANYTHING."

Abused children all know that... So yes... Will/give your assets to your grand-children (by-pass their parents), because they "deserve"/are "better" in Your eyes then their parents (Your child) and bonus 'points' if you can also Will part of your assets to 'less' genetically related relatives like nieces/nephews...

I grew up in an environment like THAT. So even IF my granny had played "that game" and gave the bulk of the estate to Me? I would have done the right thing after her death and distributed the estate equally.

Abusers and enablers would say, "Well... Those were Her wishes/plan for Her estate. Who are YOU to go against that???" Me -- "Someone who refuses to perpetuate family dysfunction by taking more then a fair share because the person who 'willed' this shouldn't have power to create more chaos after they die."

Unfortunately Golden Children/enablers/abusers will happily accept those unequitable "gifts" and remind the Scapegoat -- "You don't deserve ANYTHING."

I don't disagree with HolyHannah that there is a possibility of conditional love going on here. Just a possibility, just as the possibility is also that the issue with with the son or even that there is contribution from both sides.

I know someone who has shown definite conditional love to their son. "If you live the way we want you do or do things my way, then we are going to withdraw until you comply." Yet, if you heard it from their parents, I think they would probably cry about how much she has done for her son and how she is being shut out. On the other hand, the son is also not asking for anything and doesn't care if he is disinherited. He'll find out when they die and he doesn't plan to go to their funeral. If he is, the man has told me that it will just confirm to him that he was right not to chase his mother.

There are always two sides to every story but it is true that JGran has the right to choose what to do with her assets when she dies.

When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from.

I'm often asked on gransnet to consider my mums feelings/perspective or asked questions about my motives/thinking.

I actually don't mind. I think it is important I do do that.

I don't agree when people tell me my choice to estrange is wrong/ cruel/using my children as weapons and I will generally explain why. But that wasn't always the case.

One of the possibilities I had to consider was that there was something wrong with me. That was hard because my mum always told me there was something wrong with me from as young as I can remember.

Its right and fair that if I am to consider there is something wrong with my mum, I also look at myself.

So I did, and got help and found out that I am actually the more emotionally healthy one. I didn't start that process from an unbiased position either, I started it from "I think the problem is me".

So my opinion is that it is always healthy and productive to consider that perhaps things aren't as we thought, we aren't as healthy as we could be and seeking help to figure out what went wrong in the relationship and what our part is in that is the right thing for everyone no matter what answers we then find after honest evaluation.

As you say OceanMama JGran like everyone has the right to decide who inherits from her.

I don't see evidence of conditional love from the OP, but plenty of evidence of conditions being placed on the relationship by her son.

IMO it's wrong to start making assumptions and filling in the 'blanks' by saying "perhaps the mom is in the habit of ........" and "perhaps mom has said.........", because we only have one side of the story.

The final paragraph of your post is spot on OceanMama. Our point of view can understandably, be coloured by our own experiences, but that shouldn't result in those experiences being projected onto someone else's.

If we want to help others, we should offer advice and opinions on what we are told. Referring to our personal experiences can be useful but projecting those, especially if there's been experience of abuse, can result in a poster not only feeling that they're not being believed but in some cases, that they are being or have been abusive.

JGran is the poster asking for support here. My understanding is the Estrangement threads are aimed at supporting people. It's good to try and broaden the initial OP by getting a clearer understanding of the background and history here. Part of that is developing an understanding of the personalities, the life long relationships between parents and children. As others have said, we have one side of the history here. Just as we have one side of the individual histories shared in an attempt to elicit sympathy for the son in this situation.

Well said Iam64.

When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from.

OceanMama you've summed it up perfectly here. Thank you.

Chewbacca

^When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person^ asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from.

OceanMama you've summed it up perfectly here. Thank you.

I don't think that precludes challenging the OP with ideas or suggestions, especially when they say they are looking to understand and heal a situation rather than just after support exclusively. Sometimes it's harder to think of other things when we're caught up in the situation so personally, so an outsiders pov (for those who have solicited ideas) can be helpful.

Absolutely agree with you OceanMama; the whole point of a poster asking for advice is to get different points of views and perspectives. I do often wonder what "the other side" would say if they were given a voice here! As I've said before, there are usually 2 truths and somewhere in the middle is the real truth. But as we only have 1, that's the one we look at.

When we read of these situations I think it's best to advise the pov presented by the person asking for advice. Chances are it's the honest truth from their perspective, even if there is another side, and that's the side they need feedback from

I agree. I also think that the most helpful "challenge"/Feedback when appropriate is to ask questions for the OP to consider within their context and where they are at in the problem, and in their experiences. Appropriate phraseology that is direct and honest but not unkind/aggressive sounding can enable someone to open their minds to a different perspective on their problem.

HolyHannah, While I appreciate the Devil's Advocate approach here, I can say that I am not an abusive parent. An indulgent one, but not abusive. The broken promises are on my son's end, not mine. As I've said, he has refused to tell me what his issue is. I've been asking since last September 3. I feel that I have been very patient waiting for an answer. I have asked a number of ways and always walk on eggshells in my approach so as not to cause more distance. I'm quite sure that if I push too hard, he will recoil further.

As to the question of the 17 year old driving...no, he is not allowed to have a car or his license yet. I keep hoping.

Hi Gran I've asked you a few questions, wondering if you have missed them? I've gotten confused about what happened in what order.

Did you manage to find some support? If the helpline I posted isn't for your area I could look for something closer.

JGran -- "I feel that I have been very patient waiting for an answer." -- Just because you feel/believe something doesn't mean that the recipient (the person on 'the other end'/your son) agrees.

LOTS of people say, "I'm not doing xxxx..." while doing exactly what they SAY they are NOT "doing" and vice-versa.

Chewbacca -- "But as we only have 1, that's the one we look at." -- That might be 'the one' YOU look at but I try to look at every situation from both angles because that's how I go about finding "the truth in the middle".

And I totally disagree with -- "As I've said before, there are usually 2 truths and somewhere in the middle is the real truth."... As a victim of childhood Narcissistic abuse I can assure you that in my experiences there's reality and then there's the 'truth'/version my 'mom' believed and THAT was the "real" reality because SHE "said so".

My reality -- My 'mom' was a child abuser.

My 'mom's reality -- "I did nothing 'wrong'."

There's no "truth in the middle" to be found when a parent abuses a child.

I think you're right JGran if you force the issue as to why he's estranged you, you could push him further away.

There's nothing worse than not knowing why this happens, what they're thinking and what their reasons are. It's enough to drive you insane if you let it.

There's no truth in the middle to be found when a parent abuses a child.

I agree with that as I'm sure we all do but in this particular case parental abuse isn't the issue because there hasn't been any.

Smileless -- "I agree with that as I'm sure we all do but in this particular case parental abuse isn't the issue because there hasn't been any." -- Neither of us has any way of knowing that.

We have JGran's word for it HolyHannah. It doesn't help her or anyone else posting on the support threads for that matter, for those who have very sadly been abused by their parent(s) to project their own experiences onto others.

This point keeps being made but unfortunately continues to be ignored.

It doesn't help anyone to have anyone project their own experience on to them when it happens..

I'm careful not to assume that is the case though

I don’t normally comment on these threads just read them in astonishment. Some of the posts are quite clearly from armchair barristers who like to fantasise they’re cross examining a witness in court. Others are from those with an agenda and an imagined Masters Degree in the evils of EP’s and EGP’s and how evil they are and how the poor EAC always have a valid reason for being absolute swines.

The OP sounds in possession of her faculties and has asked for advice not interrogation and the usual invented scenarios. Accept what she’s saying and advise accordingly or move on.

I read them in astonishment too sometimes tickingbird

Its almost as if there are sides rather than individuals

There's no "truth in the middle" to be found when a parent abuses a child.

I'm sure you're right HolyHannah, but this particular thread that jGran started isn't about child abuse; it's about her situation and problems and they come from a totally different place than child abuse. It's important not to project ones own problems and their resolutions onto another because it doesn't help anyone, least of all the OP.

Sometimes it's good to read things carefully before reacting because they don't say what you assume.

In non abusive relationships the truth is in the middle

In relationships where one is abusive the reality is not in the middle, its reality and lies

In relationships where both are abusive... Who knows where the truth is, that would need all the therapists to unravel and possibly a small deity.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say Starblaze? Are you saying that the OP is/was abusive to her son?