SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

I estranged my mum over her behaviour but now she says she doesn't want a relationship with me. She just wants me to say sorry so she can pretend it isn't her own fault.
She never did want a relationship with me anyway or she wouldn't have treated me badly so in a way I feel better now she has said it.

Rhinestone Try not to be so hard on yourself - this is such an alien situation all our brain and emotions want is to bend it back into a shape where it was comfortable. I sat with my hurt day in and day out and wished it would all go away for 2 years of my life. At times I didn't want the life at all and thought it would be better to end it if I was such a terrible person. I mean, one child dead, one who hates me. I must be awful. But I'm not, and eventually it started to feel better and I realised I'd stopped spending every waking minute thinking about what went wrong, how I could put it right, how awful I must be etc etc. I still think about it, but it doesn't consume me anymore. And I still love him, I always will.

Whiff - SO many similarities! I was lied about, repeatedly. Even when there were witnesses to my innocence they were all accused of being in on the grand conspiracy to secretly persecute his poor wife... There are times, at my most angry, I wish it were true and I had done those things, but that would make me as bad and I don't want to be someone so hateful I have to lie about others in order to lie to myself. The final break came when I was ill and he was told I was lying - they went so far as to tell other family I was lying and those relationships no longer exist either. It's been hideous, but time really does ease things. Hang in there, it gets better - keep your dignity, they can't ever take that so don't give it willingly. As for GC, mine doesn't even know me and probably never will.

Armadillo It's always good to hear the flip side of this situation. I don't know your exact circumstances but have picked bits up from your posts. I'm so very sorry about your estrangement from your mother. No one gets out of this unbroken do they? It's just a bottomless pit of hurt all because people can't take responsibility for their actions and don't like the consequences of them. I have said sorry to my son, I don't understand why people find it so hard to say (and be) sorry.

Smileless you are a flipping legend!

I don't get people who can't say sorry either. I thing most falling outs can be fixed by saying sorry can't they. Even if they did the worst thing you saying sorry sometimes makes it easier for them to.
I think that maybe people you notice never say sorry when they should are people to avoid in life.

Armadillo yes, people who can't take responsibility for their own actions and how they affect others are definitely to be avoided. I very much wish I'd learnt that when I was much younger - it would have saved me so much time and heartache.

I do think most fallings out can be fixed by genuine regret and a lot of listening and understanding on both sides. Unfortunately a lot of people are scared of that process and will throw everyone under the bus rather than sit down and talk openly and honestly.

As usual Smiles helped me yet again. I found something out my daughter in law had written and couldn't openly post it I was to upset and annoyed. So PM that wonderful woman. It's strange how just sharing words with someone can make a world of difference. It's not just the words but how they phrase them. I always feel she is talking to me in person. Thank you so much for your wise words.

Yesterday was the 17th anniversary of my husband's death and can honestly say I didn't feel a bit sad all day in fact I had a wonderful day. I woke up at 5 feeling happy . Don't get me wrong I miss him everyday day and still feel like half of me is missing . But the first 14 anniversaries I was a useless blob on the day. It was only after my daughter found out by accident what it did to me and told my son. And both told me I should have told them that I was determined never to be like that again. And I haven't.

I had my grandson for 5 hours yesterday we made chocolate chip cookies. And played. He's very good even though he's 3 he understood nannie isn't back to her normal self yet. I have a kidney infection. We had lunch together. He is very funny and kept singing to me.

My daughter and family moved into a new house on Friday so when she came for him I saw it and had cuddles from my baby grandson and feed him. It's lovely. It made me laugh my grandson was showing me around and he sounded like an estate agent pointing out all the things .

You are so right sorry is a little word be it can make a whole lot of different to people's lives. If I am wrong I say sorry and mean it. But with my son all the things he accuses me of never happened. And as he hasn't spoken to me since 30th April and the only contact I have had is the email and letter he wrote. He wants zero contact so that's what he has. I will never let him hurt me ever again. If he wants contact he can get in touch with me. But it's not been a year yet since he abandoned me as the years go by I will probably feel differently.

Stay safe everyone and thank you for being here. ???

Morning everyone, the lies are awful aren't they. At the time of our estrangement we weren't told why; what we'd done that made us such horrible people that we weren't fit to see our own GC.

Then came the lies. The reasons that were given had no basis in truth and one in particular that was so disturbing I've never in all my time here on GN said what it was and probably never will.

Due to the closeness I once had with our ES's wife, she was very open about her experiences with her parents and I was a friend of her mother's before they met so I knew what she was telling me was true, because I'd already been told.

Our ES's 'issues' that came out after he'd estranged us weren't incidents from his life with us, but her life with her parents.

Talking to you all here on this thread is such a source of comfort as well as positive, despite the pain that is so bravely shared here.

For a time I was annoyed at myself Nell for all the time I 'wasted'. All those days when I didn't get out of bed until lunch time and wandered aimlessly around the house, not even venturing outside. It was only later that I understood that that was part of the grieving process for me as well as being a part of the healing process too.

I'm glad that our 'chat' helped Whiff and so thankful to everyone who posts here as we all continue to help, comfort and support one another.

Your time spent with your GS sounds wonderful. I smiled as I read about it despite the twinge of sorrow that we never got the chance to be the GP's we'd thought we would be.

'Sorry seems to be the hardest word' is one of my favourite Elton John songs because for some, it's even more than finding it hard to say, it's an impossibility.

Even if saying sorry in itself isn't enough to fix a problem, it provides a good place to start doesn't it Armadillo but when there's no acceptance of responsibility and no contrition, there's no where to go.

Well, were hoping for some snow as we haven't had any and all we've had in rain and fog. At least snow looks nice doesn't it.

You shouldn't be ashamed to share what is said. I did and it made me feel so much better to show the world what was said to me even if some people didn't see problems and some saw more than I did it was balanced out and helped me cope.

Good morning everyone and sorry to have been off the thread for a while, but I am still grieving DH, especially as it was the anniversary of his diagnosis last week.

I want to echo Whiff and say what a kind, wise, and stalwart friend Smiles has been to me too. (I prefer Smiles to Smileless- I hope you don’t mind, I just want you to smile more, you deserve to and I think you are, you are so brave and strong and an inspiration to us all).

Sending positive thoughts to everyone. We all just need to have self belief and not allow anyone else- and I mean anyone, including our adult children - to erode our self esteem or to emotionally abuse us or exercise power plays through emotional blackmail. Life is too short and if you have loved your children and done your genuine best, you deserve better.

And I say that as someone who is no longer estranged. I have more clarity now that my mind is freeing itself from the pain and the hurt, although there is still a way to go. It’s all a learning process isn’t it, whilst we live and breathe?

Petitfromage I am so sorry for your loss, it comes in waves doesn't it? We have no choice but to sit with the grief when it does. My best to you.

As for everything else I couldn't agree more.

It's lovely to see you PF, I was going to pm you today to see how you're getting on and ask how things are going with your D and her sisters.

I hope that the clarity you mention is helping you all come to terms with what happened and help you all to find a way forward. As you know, I so admire your courage for embarking on this journey of reconciliation after all the pain you've been through.

'Smiles' is absolutely fine, in fact when anyone calls me that it makes me . After 8 years Smileless isn't really appropriate and that's to a huge extent because of the lovely ladies I've met here on the support thread and the friendships that have been made here, and else where on GN.

I have thought about changing but think I'll keep my original name.

You're right Armadillo we shouldn't feel ashamed but sometimes can we be made to feel that way, by those who don't understand and assume that all EP's are bad parents and those who assume all EAC are bad too.

I can hardly believe the meanness of some people who marry our son’s and daughters
Sadly I know first hand how l recently narrowly avoided a situation , for the time being that is.
From the day my son and his girlfriend moved into their new house his she stepped it up a notch and showed her nasty side to me.
My daughters had already noticed her manner towards me and disliked her for it. I hadn’t.
In the middle of a telephone conversation she ripped into me with so much venom that I had to tell her that we will never have a good relationship. What ever she told my son he stuck up for her.
Since she has apologised we are speaking and my close relationship with my son has changed but it is still very good.
For the moment I keep my distance from her and wait for my son to call me which he does often but I can see how jealous and insecure she is so lm keeping my gun powder dry because of the mistrust l feel for her.
I couldn’t have welcomed her more into our family when they first met but now l step back l don’t put myself out.
These types of people cause so much emotional pain and heartache l wonder what makes them tick.
If I ever feel that her demon surfaces again I will have to rely upon the kind of kind and loving nature of my son but if he joins in with her, as much as I love him l will have to cut the ties myself.
I will never be emotionally blackmailed with grandchildren.
My own ex mother in law l kept close even though my daughter’s was only three when I divorced her son. We became close friends and I loved her very much. She was a regular visitor to my home , a big part of my life and part of my family.
Why do these people have to do what they do when they meet our son’s and daughter’s? I feel for people that suffer at their hands and loose their adult children l know how easy this may happen to me.
I would welcome any advice to avoid this or is it unavoidable?

Nicegranny, all you can do is be true to yourself, continue to treat them kindly and as you say, keep your powder dry. She is his choice so support it as best you can without it crashing through your boundaries. Like you I will not be blackmailed, baited or toyed with. Life is too short and I don't want my GC to see that kind of behaviour as an example. I refuse to be part of the problem. I sincerely hope that in your case she just had a blip and that things will settle and you'll build a better relationship over time. Like you I adored my MIL and can't for the life of me understand how these people tick. All you can do is your best, I hope it works out. x

NellG thank you for your message it was very appreciated , even more so because you make me feel l am doing the right thing for me.
I want to love my future dil and when I first met her I saw her vulnerability so I made sure she was very welcome. So l am treading carefully.
One of the reasons I loved my ex mil was because I never heard her talk about anyone in a mean way, she was always such a loving grandma to my daughter, she was always so happy to spend time with just me and never forgot my birthday. There was much more to her than l could say but it was the test of time of nearly 38 years.
I was lucky that have her so what is so dreadfully wrong with some dil’s ? X

HiNicegranny it sounds as if you managed to 'dodge the bullet' so to speak and what you've experienced is both extremely upsetting and shocking.

I say shocking because having welcomed her into your home and family, to be treated in this way is not just unexpected but unnecessary.

Looking back, there were red flags with our ES's wife but like you, we were unable to see them. I think the relationship we had with our son coloured our perception of her. Perhaps it was the same for you which is why your D's were able to see things you weren't.

You're doing the right thing by stepping back and waiting for your son to call. I smiled when I read that you're keeping your gun powder dry. One of my gran's favourite sayings was keeping her powder dry and one that I use myself.

I also think that it's good that you're looking ahead and being aware of problems that could be ahead for example being "emotionally blackmailed with grandchildren".

I find it very upsetting when I read about GP's putting up with unacceptable behaviour from their AC and/or their partners, for fear of losing their relationship with their GC.

I do think that we have been saved some heart ache as our eldest GC was just 8 months old the last time we saw him, and we hadn't seen him that often. We've never seen his brother so for us the pain has been for what might have been, rather than what we had and had taken from us.

You have taken the right approach and if you can maintain the level of contact you have with your son, without doing anything that can be misconstrued as 'pushy', hopefully you can concentrate on and maintain your relationship with your son.

Is becoming estranged avoidable? Yes, but even with you doing all that you can to achieve this, the person who is best placed to prevent this from happening is your son.

It's up to him to ensure that his relationship with you continues. He needs to stand firm. If his girl friend doesn't want to see you, she doesn't have too but that doesn't mean he can't either.

If they have children, you'll be a GM and he doesn't need his partners permission for his own mother to see their children. Again, if she doesn't want to see you, she doesn't have too.

I hope your son will have the strength of character to spare you the pain of estrangement; something that our ES, much to our shock and horror, was lacking.

Thank you Smileless your words are exactly spot on because the way in which she spoke to me and the spiteful thing’s she said will stay with me and yes I was so shocked.
My son’s gf has no clue how much my dd dislike her and it’s all her own fault.
There is an important thing that I didn’t mention before. My son had second thoughts about marrying his girlfriend at one point and he seems to have gotten over that. I think that if she speaks to him the way she did to me he will at some point think again but it’s my hope that they will be happy together.
If they do have children l won’t get too involved to protect myself. She already has a daughter of 9 years old and knows how difficult it is bringing up children alone. My son is a hard worker and has his business to run so if children do come along she will need help and it won’t come from her mother because she works full time and has a new husband.
I will just stay in the background and trust that my son stays in touch with me l would be broken hearted if he didn’t. X

Smileless l have read some of your heart break and it made me feel for you. I’m sorry that you’re own son has treated you in this way. One day he may wake up from the clutches of his wife and return to you. X

Thank you Nicegranny. "My son had second thoughts about marrying his girlfriend at one point and he seems to have gotten over that".

That really jumped out at me; our ES was the same!! Unknown to me he was out walking with his dad one afternoon and expressed his doubts. His dad said it was probably nerves and almost everyone has 'doubts' before the big day arrives.

Mr. S. often mentions that conversation and says he wishes he'd responded differentlybut I always tell him, it wouldn't have made any difference and anyway, at the time we didn't have any worries or concerns.

The curse of hindsight.

Nicegranny your strategy is wise. If grandchildren come along, it IS possible to build a relationship with them, and sustain a relationship with AC...but at the same time very important to be clear about the red line over which you will not step, to avoid direct emotional blackmail over the grandchildren. For instance indifferent/uninterested tolerance might be acceptable whereas direct real nastiness as you experienced would not be.

A difficult tightrope to walk and different choices to be made for anyone according to their individual circumstance.

Thank you Madgran for your words.
I will be walking on eggshells for evermore when in the company of my son’s gf (fiancé). She hasn’t had the kind of close relationship with her mother that my children have had with me. I feel she’s not used to way we frequently contact each other and l don’t call my son when he’s at home.
Perhaps one day she might see the worth of a mil figure but until she does l’ll be very careful.

Perhaps one day she might see the worth of a mil figure but until she does I’ll be very careful

She might.... but in case she doesn't an alternative is to get to a point of acceptance that it will never happen, expect nothing and then one can't be disappointed when nothing comes! That acceptance can help with maintaining civility whilst being clear about your own red line.

Madgran my sentiments precisely in fact I couldn’t have put it better. ?

Reading all your wise words has helped me. I know for sure my husband would not have put up with what I did for years from my son and daughter in law. The being let down at the last minute by my son and my daughter in law's rudeness.

Until August 2019 I lived just over 100 miles from my children. After my husband died I had my parents and mother in law to look after. Mom was the last to die in February 2017. I put my house on the market March 2018. Had 2 buyers pull out . First one day we should have exchanged and 2nd 4 days before exchange. Luckily each time the bungalow was for sale and the executors still went with me. Knowing I was moving closer to them . Sent my daughter in law over the edge. Why I will never know . I am not nor ever been a threat to their relationship. Even before I moved I never visited without an invitation. Last time I saw her was boxing day 2019.

She started her hate campaign against me on Reddit long before I moved here. It was horrible to find out that someone I grew to love hated me for years. Dating back to a year after they started going out together.

My daughter and her never got on. But I never got on with my brother's 2nd wife. But I never treated her badly in any way. She was my brother's wife and the mother to my nephew and nieces.

I have only ever hated 2 people. They were my in laws and they earned that hate. They treated my husband their only child.( His sister died when he was 5 she was 12. ) appallingly. So much so I said if he told me he was adopted I would believe him. There was nothing of them in him. They treated me and my family the same. My husband never liked his parents but loved them because they were his parents.. No matter how they treated us we never abandoned them. His dad died at 70. He was 6 years older than his mom. We never abandoned her and after my husband's death neither did I. Even though she said she had no son or grandchildren time and time again in my present to other people . I soon put them right. And she didn't have dementia she was just an evil woman who only loved herself. No matter how she treated me I still looked after her . Visiting, phoning ,making sure during hospital visits and investigations they never did anything she didn't want and made sure no one ever hurt her. I did all that and I hated her.

My son said in the email he sent me he loved me but didn't like me. But if you love someone you would at least want to know if they are alright. Even a text message once a week.' Are you alright mom answer yes or no.' But nothing. So saying he loved me was yet another lie.

We didn't bring our son up to be cruel or a coward he has learned those himself as an adult. He was was 13 when he knew his dad wouldn't live 5 years and 16 when he died. How he can just throw me away like an old sock I will never understand. But he will never hurt me again . Smiles has helped me get to that point. I still love him he is and will always be my son. His sons are my grandson's and their is nothing they can do will alter that. Any love I felt for my daughter in law died when I recently found out she wrote my husband died to get away from me. My husband died in agony fighting for every breathe from cancer. I told him to stop fighting he died a few minutes later. My daughter in law never knew my husband. How wicked can a person be to write that and what hurt me was my son would have known she wrote it.

Because of all of you I could write that. When I could only PM Smiles about it. Thank you all . ????

I've been pondering this Whiff, since you pm'd me about it and I'm wondering if your son does know that his wife posted on social media that his father died, just so he could get away from you.

Before we were estranged, our ES's wife made a couple of ridiculous accusations. One was that when she was a few months pregnant with our first GC, I'd seen her and deliberately blanked her.

She said this in front of our son who looked shocked and said to her "mum would never do that". Another occasion was during a difficult 'phone conversation, she said I hung up on her while she was still talking to me.

He came to our home and said this had happened. At the time of the conversation his dad was stood next to me in the kitchen. He heard me say 'I'll have to go now' and told our son what he'd heard and that I wouldn't just have put the 'phone down on her.

Our ES said he was in the room with his wife at the time, she was still talking to me when she stopped and said "your mum's just out the phone down on me". I remember as if it were yesterday, saying to him "but how did you know I was still on the other end? How do you know I hadn't already ended the call?" I'll always remember the look on his face when after a few moments what I'd said had registered. He knew that what she was saying was a lie. He didn't say so but promptly changed the subject.

There were other examples of her stupid accusations which to begin with he was able to see through. I don't know apart from being accused of blanking her, if he ever challenged her on any of the others but I do know there was a time when he recognised they were untrue.

In their hearts our EAC know who we are, the kind of people we are and what we would, might or never dream of doing.

Mr. S. says of our ES that he gave so much ground that in the end he had no more to give. They know what their partners are really like and not just because of us, but they see how they treat of other people in their lives.

Such is the extent of their coercive behaviour, their ability to manipulate and control that our EAC become trapped in this cycle of emotional abuse.

If you son does know that his wife has been accused of writing that vile message on Reddit Whiff, he'll have said it's not true. If he were to be told today for the first time, his outward response would undoubtedly be the same.

But what would his heart tell him? What would he know instinctively because of the way he's seen his wife treat others as well as how she treats him?

After almost 8 years, why did our ES contact me when my mum died? 'There's none so blind as those who will not see' but even when they refuse to see, there's something perhaps that occasionally casts a feint light on the truth.

I pity our ES, I pity all EAC who've walked away from the parents they know love them because one day we'll die and maybe it wont be until that day, that they'll have to face what they've done.

About 5 years ago during a conversation with our DS he said to me "you do realise don't you mum that this may never be resolved and you'll take this estrangement with you to the grave'". I told him that yes, of course I realise that but there's nothing I can do about it and anyway, I'll be dead. I wont have to live with it anymore but his brother will.

If people don't like their parents in law that's fine to stay away. They shouldn't keep their spouces away though as that is a seperate relationship. People should only estranged to protect themselves or minor children if needed to. Not make other adults estrange.
Scary that someone could have that much control.

It is scary as you say Armadillo and heart breaking.