SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

PetiteFromage ; how sad to hear that DH is receiving end of life care such an emotional time for everyone.
The fact that only two visitors at a time are allowed at the hospital is deflecting some of the problem away from you.
Your estranged daughter can go with you which is a good way to keep the other two daughters away from her for the moment. I am not sure about inviting your daughter in for a coffee right now, perhaps you could ask her to call at the house fifteen minutes early and arrive at the hospital and have a coffee in hospital cafe or costa. My local hospital has a restaurant and also a medium sized Costa and both get busy at times. Tell daughter the other two are distressed about your H and need quiet time. After your visit maybe go for a light lunch and discuss with your D the reality of reconciliation and that it will take time for her sisters to readjust, surely she cannot think that by walking back into your lives everything will be the same as it used to be.

P.F. you have enough to deal with and DH is a priority to
you let all three girls know that so it is them that need to have some common ground between them, when DH is eventually no longer around there will have to be some sort of boundaries in place for all of them, after all there are also children that have been born into the family and surely everyone wants them to know family life.
Do take care it is good to hear the updates.

Oh how I feel for you PetiteFromage.
The end of life for DH is difficult enough for you without added complications. My feeling would be to do what is best for you and DH at this incredibly intense time. You can't have this time back again so take care of yourself and DH as much as you can. DD1 needs to understand this time is not all about her returning to the family but about supporting you and DH

I am so sorry to hear you are having all this to struggle with when you are wanting to spend this time supporting your husband and dealing with momentous emotions yourself. No wonder you have brain fog. I can't offer any advice that hasn't already been said, but whatever you do, if it doesn't suit anybody it's really not your fault. As Mary62 says you can't have this time again so do what is right for you and DH as much as you can.
I wish I could give you some kind of real support but can only be with you in spirit. xxx

Hoping all is as well as can be expected PFx

We've decided to stay at our lodge for another week making the most of our last visit for this year. A grey and windy day today but warm inside.

Good morning everyone I need some help and opinions please, will try and keep my story as short as I can. My eldest stepdaughter and her father are estranged. They have had a difficult relationship over the years and more especially since she has had two children of her own. She told him in a letter a few years back that she had tried to cut him out of her life but found it so difficult that they arranged to meet up and discuss their issues. For a while things although strained improved a little. She lives quite near to us but we never see her or our grandchildren and this is one of his biggest gripes and this year again she seems to have decided she would prefer to have no contact. We send birthday/Christmas presents to the grandchildren. These are always acknowledges with a video message or a letter. I can see that she has a lot of issues and also that she takes a lot of what her dad has said to her as criticism - they are very alike and to a degree I can understand how he makes her feel. He lives with constant pain, guilt and anger over their relationship or lack of it which he has seen a counsellor about and he came to the realisation that sometimes you have to accept that something can’t be repaired. However, it doesn’t really ever go away and we are about to move house to a different area (in reality we won’t be that much further away from her but will be in a different direction and nearer to my family who we see a lot and who want us nearer as we get older). He wants to tell her that he’s moving but doesn’t know how to - whether to write to her before, just send a moving card, tell her after....... It seems to me there is no right answer (and I’ve tried to help many times but it comes back to bite me). I’m sure she will take this as another ‘personal’ slight but what to do? Any opinions would be welcome ?

NanaPlenty. That sounds like a very difficult situation but, in your shoes, I would be supportive to your husband - as you are being - but I think that he needs to try to sort it out himself. As you have already realised, any intervention on your part will 'come back to bite me'. Good luck and I hope that everything works out ok.

Thanks PetitFromage - I’m so sad for them both (and obviously I miss them too). I’m all out of ideas and I just hope they find a way to reconcile.

It must be very difficult for you NanaPlenty seeing how upset your DH is because his relationship with your D has broken down.

I agree with PF, this is a decision for your H to make and all you can do is support him. A moving card seems a little impersonal and for him to tell her once you've moved may not be a good idea. Perhaps a personal note, as opposed to a letter would be the best way to go.

In your position, if asked, I would suggest the latter but only if he asks.

I hope that your move will herald a new and more positive chapter in both of your lives.

Thank you everybody for your support.

The last couple of days have not been easy. A decision has been made to refer DH home to die. He is refusing medication and just wants to be home. He has had enough. I don't want him to suffer any longer. I can't believe how quickly he has deteriorated.

Yesterday was also very difficult with DD1, as I was half expecting it to be. She picked me up and drove down to the hospital, we chatted amicably about how her course was going, her family etc. We visited DH, she was very loving towards him, we had hugs, she asked how I was, told me to take care of myself. I said how lovely her children are, how pleased & proud of them DH is. All fine so far. I offered to take her out for a meal or a coffee in the town where the hospital is, but she said that she needed to get back. So we set off.

Then, as we were en route to drop me off back at my house, she said that she wanted to pop in for a cup of tea. So, I said it wasn't a good idea as everyone is very upset. She said that she couldn't even visit the family home for a cup of tea, that she had been ostracised from the family, that it was unbelievable, when their dad was dying that she should be treated this way. She was very angry. So I had to explain that her sisters were very upset and hurt by her behaviour, as we were. She'd had the opportunity to have her father at her wedding, to share the joy of her first born child, which her sisters hadn't, and she had deprived him of that. She had said cruel things, cut us off without warning, causing great pain.

She asked whether I was trying to make her feel guilty. I said no, but that sometimes you have to look to the past to move into the future, that she is my daughter, that I will always love her, but that I was so hurt by what had happened, as are her sisters. She said that she had been very young at the time (22) and that we had laughed at a photo of SIL, saying it made him look like a terrorist; that she'd had trust issues, although she didn't remember what they were. She said why hadn't we turned up on her doorstep, which is what she would have done in our situation. I said that I had called the 'phone company (I still pay for her 'phone bill) and they said that she was using the 'phone, so I knew that she was ok, but had chosen not to communicate with us, didn't want to hear from us, so why would we turn up, it would be harassment. She didn't really have an answer for that.

DD1 said that what if she wanted to bring the DGDs to visit. I said that will not be a problem, everyone will do what's best for Dad; that I wanted to love her children, but I was afraid of being hurt again, if she took them away. She said that she had sent all of the photos and videos, not out of duty, but because she wanted to share them, they were DH's legacy.

We didn't part on bad terms, although not good terms either, and she has been in touch again today. DD2 and DD3 think that she is trying to rewrite history. She was so much the caring DD yesterday and had brought a hand made card from the DGC to Grandad, saying how much he is loved etc. It could have stayed like that, I could have let it go, just move forward, bury the past even if it threatens to burst its seams, but she forced the issue by asking to come into the house. It made me seem churlish, gave her the moral high ground. I have no doubt SIL is reinforced in his views that we are a horrible family, although she did say that they have issues with his parents too (after I said that I liked his DP, but upset that they shared in the wedding day, joy of first child, photo of MIL and DD on display on wedding day, but I, as her mother, was not wanted). But what else could I do? DD2 and DD3 would have been so upset if I had invited her in.

There is so much else going on. Sometimes, illness and death draws people closer, which DH so wanted, but sometimes it drives them further away. Sadly, in our case, I feel that it is the latter. DD1 just doesn't understand why people are hurt. She just drops people, not just us, but her friends, her grandmother. She really just doesn't get it. And now I am half regretting that I had the conversation, but I don't want a relationship that is not based on honesty, either. It's all a bit tricky, to be honest.

PF I am so sorry that your DH has deteriorated so quickly. I hope it will be a comfort to you both for him to pass at home, I know that is what I would want to do if I have the choice.

I think that the conversation you had with DD1 sounds really open, honest, and fair, I hope when she has had time to think things through she will accept your words as a chance to move on together with open hearts and minds. Tiptoeing on eggshells never really fixes things. If you can try to remember, amidst all this horrible pain, to share the things she is getting right, as you have with us, hopefully she will understand that blame is intended just an honest sharing of feelings.

If you can all be there for your DH in the best ways you each can right now I think that will help him, and also yourselves when you have your grief to deal with. I am so sorry this is upon you, but I see so much love in you that I believe your family will be happy and loving again one day.

Always thinking of you all. x

Good morning nanaplenty. As someone who is the estranged one, I can only echo what everyone else has said, that you can only support your husband. My family feel for me and on occasion has tried to offer advice, or intervene, and actually this seems to have only hardened my ES's position. I think he felt that he was being 'ganged up on.'
We were looking to move house, though it is now on hold due to covid, and I'm dreading what to do about our son, because in addition to notifying him of a change of address we still have a load of stuff of his here and we simply won't have space for it if we find the bungalow we need. But anyway, I'm sure your hubby will do the best he can in dealing with the problem. I hope the move brings you both much joy.

no blame is intended - so sorry for typo

Thanks hugs, but I am now feeling that I got it wrong, that I should have let her come in for a cup of tea, that I feel so bad, but her sisters would have been so upset. She thinks that I just side with them, and I suppose I did, but it makes me feel so wretched, that I have sacrificed the reconciliation.

She said didn't it make me feel bad as a mother that she had cut me off for a while, as it didn't seem to. I said that it made me feel terrible, affected me profoundly, that I was sure that I got things wrong but that I always loved her. She said that I had been too liberal, that when she met SIL, she was overweight and lacking confidence, and binge drinking, but that basically he 'saved' her. She said that she didn't blame me exactly, but I think that in some part of her she does. I just feel that my whole life and my family have been blown apart.

Sorry, end of pity party.

PF Words cannot express how badly I feel for you and your husband and what you are going through. If he is coming home then I’m assuming your daughter will want to see him. Has she thought of talking to her sisters ? You may not want to be in the middle at a time like this. I don’t know how old the others siblings are but maybe the three of them need to have a conversation. Your daughter will want to see her father at home.
The only thing you need to be concerned about is your DH.
Sending good thoughts to you

She said didn't it make me feel bad as a mother that she had cut me off for a while, as it didn't seem to

Are you still seeing that therapist that seemed to have the measure of her manipulation? Please please look after yourself. You’re going to make yourself ill over appeasing this grown woman.
She made her choices and they didn’t include taking you into account once.
Your other two daughters are individuals who she also hurt.
As a mother I can completely and wholeheartedly understand your need for reconciliation above all else.

But they don’t have that. She’s not as bound to them. It may not just be the trauma now of what your family is going through. She isn’t acknowledging the hurt she caused them so why would they want her around. Especially if she comes with that dick head.

There’s no real benefit for them.
So she needs to understand that she can have a relationship with you. And she is now the one being cut off.

But I fear that’s a self realisation far to advanced for her.

Please. Please please just be selfish. Please just take care of yourself.

Sorry for jumping in to this well established thread, I'm sorry you are having such an awful time of it PetitFromage and I couldn't help but comment after reading.

It must feel awful that laughing at son in law and saying he looked like a terrorist pushed your daughter away for a time. It seems like a long time from what you are saying, did you ever apologise? Maybe that's why she expected you to break the ice and come to her first. She says she has lost trust.

It's your home too if you want to invite her in for tea. I don't think this rift will heal unless it's allowed to. I think you both need to rebuild this trust that has been lost. How amazing would it be if you could do that because I am sure the rest of the family would benefit from that example. Especially as you must all need all the support you can get right now.

If I were OP at the time I’d have said a lot worse....

Just struck me is as not a very Liberal thing to say, didn't mean to pounce on it, there seems to be a lot to unravel there and if this man is awful and there are little children involved it worries me that one day daughter may not have a safe refuge for those children.

Personally I'd worry that comment pushed my daughter away from me towards a bad relationship rather than being supportive and being a role model of a good relationship.

Not defending daughter at all, it just stood out to me as an issue and concerned for those children involved in all this lack of trust and broken relationships.

You don’t support toxic relationships.

That's not what I said....

Sorry cannot engage with twisting meanings.

I'll move on to another topic

Best wishes PetitFromage, hope you find a way forward

PF I'm so sorry that it has come to that time when your DH needs to be at home for the rest of the time he has left. My heart is breaking for you dear friend.

FWIW I think you did the right thing by not asking her in for a cup of tea and PLEASE don't think for one moment that by being honest and realistic about how things really are that you have damaged this reconciliation.

There are several parts of your post, things that your DD1 said to you yesterday that reveal so much about the real cause of your estrangement, more probably than she realises.

I've posted many times on the estrangement threads that I wonder how may of these EAC actually think about what they are doing. Does it never enter their minds that despite the unconditional love their parents have for them, that if and when they want to reconcile, that may not be what their parents and the other members of their family they estranged from want?

If only she could she how lucky she is to have been welcomed back by the parents she has hurt so much. She needs to be thankful for that. She needs to be supporting you as much as she can during this difficult time and her sisters too, even if that means abiding by their wishes not to have contact with her.

Your post is spot on Bibbity.

With all due respect Astral the last thing PF needs at this point in time is to be made to feel that she, her H and her other D's are the ones responsible for their estrangement. Your family laughing at a photograph of your H, saying he looks like a terrorist is not a reason to estrange them, and the rest of the family including sisters and a GM for 4 years.

PF during the course of her therapy has had a professional point out to her the extent of her D's manipulation, and that is clearly demonstrated by the conversations PF had with her D yesterday.

Sending you love and hugs PF xx

I truly didn't mean any offence to anyone, there are a lot of people involved in this and some are little children. I thought perhaps there might be some room for mediation because I could see why that might be upsetting for the daughter and that maybe there was a way to heal this relationship with so much tragedy overhanging everyone already.

I'm not sure what is reason for estrangement really but unhappiness is surely one of them. Especially with binge drinking and other issues that could send people down a wrong path.

I can see that maybe it's not the right time now and I apologise for that.

She needs to be thankful for that. She needs to be supporting you as much as she can during this difficult time

I think Smileless has just made me realise why the interaction you posted about made me so disgusted.

In a moment of extreme pain and despair for you and the whole family. She tried once again to kick it all off and make it the DD1 show. This just isn’t about her. She needs to shut up sit down and do as she’s supposed to. Right now she is not that important. She is apart of a family in pain. Not the centre of the universe.

So sorry you are having to deal with this right now PetiteFromage. I agree with Bibbity and Smileless2012..
well said Bibbity 'Please please look after yourself. You’re going to make yourself ill over appeasing this grown woman.
She made her choices and they didn’t include taking you into account once.
Your other two daughters are individuals who she also hurt.'

The pain you and DH are going through right now is enough to cope with on it's own.

Take the best care of yourself that you can xx

PF. Your conversation with your daughter was open and honest. That is the best way to be. She must decide for herself how she feels about it. You are right that a relationship based on honesty is best.

You should not be having to worry about anything at all except your DH at the moment and making this part of his life as it comes to an end the best that it can be. Keep your focus on only that and everything else will have to be dealt with later.

If your husband comes home and DD1 wishes to visit and you think he would want that, then ask your other daughters to either go out or to tolerate it politely for their fathers (and your) sake.

I think Bibbity is right that you need to sustain your counselling but at the moment just focus on DH and don't try to analyse, "beat yourself up" or worry. If your daughters wish to discuss other things say tht your focus has to remain on DH and yourself and other things will have to be dealt with later, don't get drawn in at the moment. Just focus on him and yourself, this is a precious time. x

Your whole family must be extremely stressed and concerned right now PF - it's really not the time for any or you to be trying to fix long-term issues. All you can do is muddle through right now.
The reconciliation would probably have progresses slowly, at its own pace, but with your dear husband's condition you have all been thrown together in a way that you weren't ready for. Be kind to yourself and DH and hope that your DDs will have enough understanding of the situation to hang on in there till they can resolve things properly at a later date, even if they are making mistakes now in the heat of all the emotions.

Feeling for you so much. x