Understanding estrangement

Well I've got through the day without any more tears, although my eyes feel so sore and gritty from all the tears I've shed over the last few days. I have even managed to eat something, only a ready meal macaroni cheese, just bunged it in the microwave. It slipped down easily enough even though my stomach is still doing somersaults and food is the last thing I want. But I must eat or I will be ill.

Maybe some good will come out of this, maybe I will lose some weight. ?

Managed to drag myself round Aldi's, picked up some dark red roses to cheer myself up and in honour of my husband. Burgundy red was his favourite colour. The anniversary tomorrow.

I'm exhausted and I would love a nap right now. I've tried but it's just not happening. Hope the sleep fairy comes easily tonight. I'm soooo tired.

All in all not a bad day. Better than I'd hoped for. All quiet on the western front, no more texts or phone calls, so far so good. No contact from son either but that's ok.

I think they both think that if they leave me to stew and in DILS words "reflect for a while" then it will all blow over and she can just dance back into my life as if nothing happened. Thats what she's done in the past.

Well sorry, not this time, the relationship between DILand I, such as it was is, now well and truly dead. She killed it. All that remains to be seen is what my son will do. But I've decided that because I love him I am just going to let him go.

He's not the man he was. My lovely sunny natured, happy go lucky chappy has gone. In his place is an anxious and sometimes angry man, jut a shadow of his former self. So realistically I've already lost him anyway. The man in his place is practically a stranger to me. I hardly recognise him.

Sorry for the waffle.....sorry it's all a bit me, me, me......just thinking aloud.

It helps.

DerbyshireLass you are entitled to be me me. Waffle all you like I do. You are grieving for your husband and now the estrangement is another form of grief. And it hard dealing with both at the same time.

When the other half of you dies you are never whole again. 17.5 years and I still feel half is me is missing. Still only sleep on my side of the bed. Still hate the empty bed. When my husband died I lost my everything. The only person in the whole world who knew me inside and out. But I am lucky I had him .

Going through estrangement without the one person you want and need is hard. Especially at night when you want to cry and be held until you fall asleep. You put your hand out for the love of your life and he's not there.

Never apologise for how you feel. It's good we all have a safe place to talk about our feelings and know that others understand.

I hope you have a good night's sleep.

Thanks Whiff..

You are so right. If my husband were here right now he would be holding me close, comforting me and probably saying something daft to make me laugh.

But tbh I do believe that if he were alive then none of this would be happening anyway. She simply wouldn't dare. And if she had, he would have stood up for me and set her straight. He was a mild mannered gentle man but would have fought like a lion for me.

I do think I have made a rod for my own back. For far too long (5 years) I have indulged her, made excuses for her, forgiven her. My own silly fault. I kept giving in for the sake of peace and harmony. I let it happen.

But we can't turn back the clock, I accept my culpability in all this but no matter what, this worm has finally turned. I should have walked away earlier but I kept hoping it would work out. A salutary lesson there,.

I have shed a few more tears tonight. I have deliberately not gone to bed too early so hopefully I will be able to get some sleep.

Up until now I have kept all this a secret but today I have "come out", as it were, to some of my RL friends and they have been wonderful. They have rallied round and shown love and support. One of them is coming round tomorrow. She has just texted me to say she is leaving her mobile switched on so I can call her, even in the middle of the night if I need her.

Now that is what I call love.

Thank God for my friends both in RL and my new friends on this thread. I'm so grateful for your kindness.

DerbyshireLass have the best day you can with your friend. If you want to sob your heart out in your friends arms do it. Don't try and to be brave it will only make it worse. Been there done that. You aren't just grieving for your husband but the son you knew and loved. I and many here know that pain.

Like you I know if my husband was alive this would never have happened. He never stood up for me against his parents but he was my rock and knight the rest of the time .

Don't go down the what ifs road . What's done is done. Today is the start of a new chapter for you . My husband said live the best life you can. You must do that to.

Take care and my thoughts are with you today. ?

Good Morning Whiff.

Thanks. I'll do my best today. I'm glad my friend is coming. I am usually self reliant but I do think I will benefit from company today. I think I need to reach out and have more contact with friends.

I've not had much sleep, don't feel too good at all this morning. I just need to try relax otherwise I am going to make myself ill.

You're right, what ifs are pointless, what's done is done.

Last night I started having doubts about the way I tried to defend myself and for telling my son about the texts. It was the first time I have told him. I have kept it all to myself till now.

I did wonder if I'd done the right thing but then I thought ok maybe I could have kept quiet, ignored her, tried to carry on as if nothing had happened but I feel certain it would have all gone pear shaped again further down the line. How many more months or years would I have had to endure.

I think I have simply pre-empted an estrangement by being proactive and not just sitting back and waiting for it to happen. I know deep down I had to take some control back in my own life and stand up to her. It was like being on a roller coaster ride and I never did like roller coasters. So I got off.

But God it is hard. I am shaking, I feel sick. I think, I hope, it's just shock and my body's delayed reaction. I hope I can get my calm back soon.

I'm feeling scared and sick. It's just horrible. Hopefully it will feel less raw with time and I will adapt to living with estrangement. Hopefully I have got out in time and I will start to feel physically better soon.

Last thing I need is a stroke or a heart attack.

DerbyshireLass your last 3 paragraphs are exactly how I felt.

Smiles helped so much when she answered my first PM last year. Took me three attempts to get my story out as I cried that much writing it. Words can never express how wonderful a woman she is. Because of her I was able to pour my heart out on the thread under this one. The one she started. When it happened to her and her husband all those years ago.

I know the hurt will always be their but that's something I am learning to live with. If I was an awful mother, mother in law and grandmother as my son and daughter in law make out I am. Why is it my daughter,son in law and grandson's love and care for me. We brought our children up the same . Since my husband died I have always treated both families the same.

I know the fault is not with me but my son and daughter in law's .

My son knows what a bad mom, mother in law and grandmother is he knew my husband's mom. And knew how she treated us before and after my husband's death. He also knows what his grandfather was like.

He knows what good in law's,parents and grandparents are like as he knew my parents.

Do not doubt yourself you did the right thing. Take comfort from your friend today. And live the life you want . Be the person you want to be the person your husband loved and adored above all others.

Just resting, listening to motivational podcasts, feeling much calmer. The hammering in my chest has finally subsided.

Have just received a text from my son, an olive branch. I am happy to graciously accept it, at least the door is still open. That's all I want,

I have been mulling over how best to tackle DIL when she next crawls out of the woodwork. She will try and wriggle back because that is what she does, it's what all narks do. They try to reel you in again, like a cat playing a mouse.

Well this mouse has roared and she won't be allowed back again. Just need to figure a way of closing it down permanently without closing the door to my son.

Why does life have to be so complicated. At the age of 70 havent I earned the right to a peaceful, stress free retirement.

After my narcissistic father died I thought I was free of all this nonsense. Little did I imagine there's was a narc DIL waiting in the wings. ??.

She asked me to reflect and I have. My answer is still the same - she is banished......from my home and my life. No more drama.

My friend is coming this afternoon. It's a nice morning so after breakfast I am going to go for a walk and then potter in the garden, cut the grass, enjoy the fine weather.

But before that I'm just going to do a few easy yoga stretches. Time to start healing my body.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202108/medium-43090-courage.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202108/medium-820390-therapy.jpeg

Aww sending hugs to you all.

Today is World Lion Day so let's roar and be fierce in guarding our boundaries and our right to a happy, peaceful and enjoyable life , to have people around us who are kind and peaceful (or to have the peace of absolutely no one toxic, if no one kind is available) Alone is better than toxic.

Here's to us powerful women (and we are) because that's why toxic people cannot stand us.

Our posts crossed Whiff.

I don't know. I asked my friend yesterday - she is estranged too. I asked if it was our fault, have we spoiled them. Why do we have sons who have allowed themselves to become victims.

That's why I wish my husband was here because he could have done the man to man stuff. I am sure he would have handled it all so much better than me. He could have guided my son and his mere presence would have been enough to curb her worst excesses. Sons need fathers, even when they are fathers themselves. They need the wisdom that comes from experience. I can offer my sons my perspective and try to guide them but I cannot give them the male world view and the support that only a father can give.

Well, I am glad I accepted my sons olive branch. He has just sent me the most delightful, charming and chatty texts. Much more like his old self. He hasn't been that chatty in years.

I think he too has been reflecting on what has happened. It would seem he is determined to keep me in his life. Dont know how he will manage it in the long term but it's nice to know it's what he wants and he's making the effort. At least he is trying. Perhaps I have shaken him out of his apathy at last.

I don't wish to labour the point but we are a small family, his brother and I are all he has left. Maybe he has finally realised that if he loses us he will be left with nothing.

Who knows. Maybe I did the right thing after all and he's had the wake up call he needed. Whatever happens next I will be setting boundaries, I will never allow her back. Any relationship with her will be purely at arms length. She will not set foot under my roof again, not unless there is a dramatic and permanent change in her attitude and the way she treats me.

I don't need her to love me or even like me but I think I deserve courtesy, consideration and respect. Otherwise it's no go.

The ball is in her court. I will not back down.

Gosh I do sound harsh but I think it's time I stepped up and set some boundaries.

How I rabbit on.?

Oh yes......here me rooaaarrrr!!!!!

I'm roaring with you DerbyshireLass. Glad your son text. But don't let your guard down.

You are right son's need their dads unfortunately my husband died when our son was 16 and our daughter 20. But they had my dad for 3 years then he died ,but they still have my brother. But my son has cut ties with all our side of the family.

Luckily his is a good father and my daughter in law is a good mother. They are just crap at being a son and daughter in law.

The really stupid thing is I want him to see what I have done in my garden. He's like his dad a very good gardener. Grows his own veg and fruit.

But it's not to be. So made my peace with that. Sun's just come out while the soil is wet need to dig out a few plants that are finished .

And you are not being harsh you are being sensible. ☺️

Derbyshirelass I am glad for your sakethat your son contacted you and was chatty. I hope it leads to better times for you both and that he finds a way to manage the situation. However I fear for you emotionally, that you might find he puts you on a rollercoaster of off/on chattiness because of pressure from his partner and you will never know where you stand. I truly hope that doesn't happen but please be careful xx

Derbyshire Lass, I'm so glad for you!
Hooray for the roaring!

Thanks Madgran. Yes a salutary warning not to build my hopes up. The matter is not done yet. You are so right with your assessment of what could happen but I can assure you I won't be riding any emotional roller coasters. Not any more.

And......I AM going to be very careful. I am not going to end up having a stroke or heart attack over some silly girl.

I ended up having a pretty good day. A neighbour asked me how I was. I said I was fine, He said "No you're not, talk to me". So I told him the whole sorry saga and he confided that he and his partner were also having similar issues.

Then my friend came and she told me the same......she too was having problems with her DIL, on the verge of estrangement. My friend from the other evening has been estranged from her son for years.

What is going on??? All of a sudden I'm surrounded with grieving parents who have either been estranged from their children and grandchildren or who are desperately trying to hang on and repair bridges.

What is happening.......why do todays younger parents do this. Why are they using their own children as weapons. What kind of an example is that, what a dreadful precedent to set. How is it teaching their children the importance of love and the value of relationships. When their children grow up with the lesson that people are expendable will they then be surprised when the same thing happens to them......when their children turn on them in years to come. Looks like there is going to be an awful lot of bad Karma out there.

Do these silly selfish creatures not realise they are sowing the seeds of their own nemesis.

It was so good to talk it out today, with both my neighbour and my friend, we shed a few tears and had a few laughs. Thank God we can choose our friends. I am so grateful that I am surrounded by such love, kindness and support. Both in RL and on here too.

I feel so much better this evening, my heart has stopped hammering in my chest and my tummy has stopped doing somersaults. I even managed to scoff steak, mushrooms and salad for my dinner. First decent meal I've had in days.

I am now going to light a candle and raise a glass to commemorate my husband. See if I can find a nice film to watch. Hopefully I will sleep well tonight.

I know my situation is still in the balance. I have no idea where we go from here. I have told DIL I will not be bullied and emotional blackmail won't work with me. I've told her if she wishes to estrange me then do it. The ball is in her court.

But whatever she decides, my decision is made and it is absolutely final .....I am done playing her games. If she denies me my son and grandchildren she will rue the day. I am not a vengeful person but once I'm crossed that's it, there's no going back. This lady is not for turning and she is not to be trifled with.

My son knows this. He knows I don't suffer fools and that I am much stronger than I appear to be. I think I've shocked him enough to wake him from his slumber and inertia. I am now pretty sure he has finally realised just how high the stakes are in this sick game of cat and mouse but will he be able to stand up to her or will he just cave in. Only time will tell.

On Friday he looked utterly defeated, a broken man but today I did catch a tiny glimpse of that old sparkiness. Is there still a vestige of pride and self respect in there.? Where there's life there's hope. I can only pray that he can dig deep and find the inner strength and resolve he so badly needs.

Whatever the outcome I will now be putting my needs first. I have wasted 5 years of my life trying to form a good relationship with my DIL. What a complete and utter waste of time.

I'm 70 - realistically how long have I got left. Not enough time to waste being a slave to DILs whims and demands, that's for sure. My enslavement could last for years, for what remains of my life and that is just not acceptable.

What a turnaround in my attitude in just a couple of days......I too have had my wake up call. I've gone from snivelling coward to Warrior Woman. Let's hope that if I can do it, then my son can also find some courage.

How appropriate that today is Lion Day. ??

OnwardandUpward

Derbyshire Lass, I'm so glad for you!
Hooray for the roaring!

Time to unleash our inner Lionesses. ?

Hi everyone.

Just a quick update. I slept much better and whilst I still feel a bit shaky I'm doing ok. Still struggling to eat but maybe some good will come out of it. I might lose a bit of weight, every cloud has a silver lining.?

I have wasted the last 3 days fretting and worrying over the situation.......time I will never get back. Enough. Time to get on with trying to live my best life.

It's a nice sunny day, going to get out there and enjoy it. It will be winter before we know it so need to make the best of days like these.

Thanks for everything my lovely new friends. I will keep you posted if there are any further developments but for now I'm just going to keep my head down and concentrate on me for a change.

Hope you are all ok. Take care and stay well.

Yes that's a good plan Derbyshirelass ! Hope you have a good day. I am still working so at least I have that to keep busy.

I do now know what has caused my son's estrangement. It isn't my Dil, it is a cult. I am not going to say too much here- but it explains the anti mask, anti vaccine, conspiracy theory stuff, calling evil good and good evil, cutting themselves off from all family. I now know where it is coming from. If anyone wants an explanation and we have already chatted on here I will share in a PM.

I had a very good day thanks. Did quite bit of gardening, went for a little walk.

Onwards and Upwards - How awful for you but at least you now know the truth and what you are up against . I hope that your son wakes up one day and realises what he has been sucked into.

So difficult for you all.

All quiet here, no more phone calls or texts. Suits me.

DS2 is coming tomorrow. I am going to show him the texts, (some of them are about him too). I have shielded him from DILs worst excesses in the past but I think he now needs to know the full extent of what she's been up to. Although, as I mentioned previously, he's pretty much got her sussed anyway, so doubt it will come as any great surprise.

DIL has upset DS2s partner several times. They already maintain a healthy distance from DS1 and DIL which is such a shame because DS2 would definitely be the fun uncle if he got half a chance. But they are doing the right thing, protecting themselves and not getting embroiled.

It's the grandchildren who are flung to suffer the most though. Their maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles, and extended family live half way across the world. If DIL stops the children seeing me and DS2 they will have no one else in their lives. No grandmother, no uncle. I can cope with that as can DS2 but it strikes me as wicked thing to do to your own children.

I've been doing a lot of thinking and have decided to make some pretty radical changes in my life. I had already planned to sell my house and downsize in around 5 years time but I am thinking that I might now just bring the timescales forward. I like my home, especially the garden which the children love to play in and there is loads of space for them to have sleepovers.

However both the house and garden are pretty high maintenance and I not getting any younger. If I am denied access to my grandchildren then why bother. Why not just downsize sooner and make things easier for myself. Get something smaller, easier to maintain, cheaper to run and free up some equity whilst Im at it.

I won't make any rash decisions but it's definitely something to think about,

Going not flung.........?

I've caught up with all of the fabulous posts over the last few days. What a wonderful, supportive and inspiring bunch of ladies you are. This is what the subject of estrangement needs, the courage of those who are able to share their stories so this subject isn't hidden away by shame and/or guilt, but openly discussed.

Sadly Allsorts narcissists always have to have a victim and as has been said, when for whatever reason a victim is lost, another is found. They are abusers and as such, need to alienate their victim which ultimately ends up with estrangement for their victim's family. So, we end up being their victim too.

Oh wow DerbyshireLass your post of 8th Aug. @ 20.00 blew me away. I'd love to be able to shake you by the hand for calling her out. She'd never have expected that especially as she has so much control of your son and of course the children.

"At first I was dreadfully upset, but now I'm just furious". It took me nearly two years to realise that what I needed was to be angry. Anger can be a good thing especially if it gets us out of bed every morning, determined to survive despite wishing we could just curl up into a ball and die.

I'm glad you've had that text from your son and that you're 'on your guard'. FWIW I agree with your stance regarding your d.i.l. "She is banished .... from my home and my life. No more drama".

She doesn't have to have anything to do with you does she, I just hope that your son will realise that he has a right to have a relationship with his mum, and his children have a right to have a relationship with their GM.

Hilltop third party influence in estrangement is often derided despite being a major contributing factor. Your son's behaviour following the death of your DH, his father is truly shocking.

I'm sorry for your loss. For you, Whiff and others who don't have their loving husband's support, estrangement is even harder to cope with.

OnwardandUpward what a great post I had a good roar as soon as I'd read it.

Some more shocking revelations today. Although I am not in the least surprised.....

My DS2 came round, so I showed him the texts and told him the full story. He wasn't even remotely surprised. DS2 then told me that he believes DIL commandeers DS1s phone because when he texts his brother, he can tell that she pretends to be him and texts him back as DS1.

So she is well and truly controlling him, even monitoring his phone, presumably also his computer, emails etc. Before I found out I did actually send DS1 a text. It remains to be seen whether he will actually clap eyes on it.

This is all deeply worrying, a clear sign that her controlling behaviour is escalating and that there could well be some serious emotional abuse going on.

I feel helpless. I can protect myself, my DS2 can protect himself and his partner, but poor DS1 appears to be at her mercy. God only knows what is going on behind closed doors.

Hi Smileless. Thank you and thank for starting the estrangement thread. Both threads have given us a safe place to unburden our hearts and let off steam and hopefully find comfort and support.

You are right - I think people who have been estranged by their families often feel shame and embarrassment. But it's not our shame, it's theirs. They are the ones who are behaving badly and treating us shamefully.

Not matter what sins we may be have committed, what mistakes we have made, none of us deserves to be treated this, especially our poor grandchildren. They are the real victims here, innocent and blameless. Their blind, selfish, irresponsible parents treat them as pawns. That is what is making my blood boil. I can take care of myself, as could my son if he stood up to her, but it's the little ones who will ultimately pay the price.

I can understand that my son believes he can't make a stand because she will probably use the children as a weapon. Despicable, wicked creature, she is beneath contempt. He knows she has the will and the resources to simply whisk them off to the other side of the world.......joint custody would be nigh on impossible. He's got himself into a pretty pass and there's nothing anyone else can do to help him unless he digs deep and finds the resolve to turn to his family for support. He has to find his way.

Yes I am angry...But it took me 5 years to get there, so you did well to realise your anger after 2 years. From the day she got the ring on her finger, 5.1/2 years ago she has been scheming and plotting. I have watched what was happening and damn near bitten my tongue right off. I have kept quiet, smiled and acquiesced to her increasingly insane and unreasonable demands purely to keep the peace. But there comes a tipping point.....and I reached it last Sunday.

I have been on a slow burn for years. My husband would have warned her.....he didn't call me Vesuvius for nothing. ?. I am easy going to a fault and I will do just about anything to avoid confrontation and arguments but we all have our limits don't we. We can be pushed beyond endurance. I am slow to anger but I also slow to come down again. If she thinks she can lie low and it will all blow over and that all she has to do is bide her time and then crook her little finger and I will go running back like a whipped dog then she is living in a fools paradise. She's had her chance with me (hundreds of them) but she has finally blown it. No going back now.

My DS1 is also easy going to a fault, he will forgive and forgive but I'm pretty sure one day he will snap, even if she almost destroys him. I believe he is much stronger and more resilient than either she or even he realises. He has just never been tested before. He's led a charmed life till now and this is his first real taste of adversity. But I believe he is made up of stern stuff, despite his gentleness.

I am pretty certain that she will find that when he does finally wake up and realises he's been duped he will be implacable.

There are people who live with abuse like this for decades. I just hope he sees the light one of these fine days. What concerns me is just how long it will take and how bad the abuse will get.

Hey ho....it's just a waiting game now. Will I keep my son and grandchildren. Will they be allowed to stay in contact. I very much doubt it. She might allow it for a little while to give a semblance that she is trying to be fair and reasonable but she will soon find a way to put a stop to any visits. She will dream up some trumped up excuse.

Yes I will lose out and will miss my son and grandchildren more than I can say but I will be damned if I kowtow to her again.

Glad you liked the roar Smileless

Derbyshirelass so sorry to hear that DS2 thinks his brother's phone is being controlled by his wife. My ES is incredibly controlling, like his father (who I am not with anymore) and I know he also controls my Dil's phone like that. When she "blocked" me I think maybe he did it?

It's very hard, but try to be there for him without saying too much. Tell him you love him no matter what. He will be in a very awkward position because if he doesn't do what she wants he will lose his kids too. I hope it doesn't go as badly as you fear.

Thanks Onward

You are right. There's nothing more either my DS2 and I can do, except as you say, just love him and be there for him.

And hope that one day this nightmare will end.

In the meantime I will endeavour to put it all behind me and live the best life I can. In the immediate future I am just going to make the most of what's left of the summer - concentrate on getting my garden straight and finishing off some outside jobs. Just keep busy and try not to think too much.

Good Morning all

Bit of a restless night as you can see from the time of my last post but I did manage to go back to sleep for a couple of hours. Currently sat up in bed sipping my early morning coffee. Bliss. It's going to be a nice day, not too hot so perfect gardening weather. I am just going to get out there and enjoy the day.

Sitting here, practising gratitude. Despite all that has gone on this week I still have much to be grateful for and consider myself blessed by the gods. My life can still be good and I can still be happy. It's my choice and I choose happiness.

I had a blinding flash of revelation last night.

It occurred to me DIL has handed me a perfect weapon to use against her - not that I would stoop that low but I could, if necessary, use it as leverage to protect myself and possibly my son (blackmail is such a dirty word?).

She was foolish enough to put all her vitriol, threats and attempts at emotional blackmail in writing. Silly girl. Does she not realise what's she's done. All I have to do is post them on social media and that's her discredited, her career would be in ruins.

Of course I would never do such a thing. But......if I did want to fight dirty to protect my son then she's handed me the ammunition. She thought she was invincible but like all who practise hubris, she would be the architect of her own nemesis. I could deliver it at any time of my choosing, if I felt so inclined.

Silly, foolish girl. Just goes to show that she's not nearly as smart as she likes to think she is. So much for her Phd. Not an ounce of common sense. As I said in an earlier post, her complacency will ultimately be her undoing. She will overplay her hand at some point. Karma always repays.

Am I concerned that she might post stuff about me......tbh she probably already has. ?. Not that I give a fig. She can post what she likes about me on social media......I am retired and financially independent, so I don't have to worry about my media profile - not that I have one. The people who know me and care about me know the truth. I am not interested in the opinion of strangers. It's easy enough to avoid internet Trolls.

Many of our young people are in thrall to social media. They cannot tear themselves away. They post the minutiae of their every days lives, lapping up the likes to feed their egos. Like Narcissus, gazing into the pool of reflected glory, they bask in their "fame", boasting about how many follows they have. They will often use social media to try and discredit anyone who upsets them.

Well there's a saying isn't there....."He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword". ?.

Well it's been quite a week. All of this blew up last Saturday and I think I have just about felt every feeling there is. Talk about emotional roller coaster. I feel like I have turned full circle now, back to my usual sanguine self. A week older, a little wiser.

I dare say that I could have maintained the status quo a little longer by cowering and not standing up for myself. However, I am under no illusion that I would only have been postponing the inevitable. At some point there had to be a day of reckoning. As painful as it's been I am glad it's done. I've licked my wounds and the healing has begun. I'm going to be ok.

As for the future?? Que Sera.