Child's wishes

I agree effalump it is very sad. Actually the range of emotions one feels makes it even more raw than the word sad can convey.

Whilst I understand why it would seem that sending a bunch of flowers or a carefully worded card would help.
It really doesnt, in some (most?) cases.
The receiver has to be ready to accept their part in the problem first. To then be in the frame of mind where they can accept such an overture, without attributing blame.

As we all know, we cant change others just ourselves.

It's been more than 8 years for us effalump and believe me it's got nothing to do with pride on our part, just the acceptance that there's nothing we can do so the decision was taken to move on with our lives, which we have done.

Your friend's situation sounds very much like ours Shropshirelass, we also lived very close, just 15 doors down the road so almost 5 years ago we moved away.

Best thing we ever did.

It's very sad reading this. I'm wondering what things/ happenings were so devastating as to make you estranged from your children/grandchildren and resulting in you being disengaged from your grandkids. "Pride comes before a fall". Send your sons or daughters flowers and don't aportion blame. Just try to get talking to them and take things slowly. Too many 'losses' at the moment. When they (grand-parents/ parents/ kids/ grandkids) are gone, it'll be too late.

I always thought the children had a right to who they could see, but after speaking with a friend who is not allowed to see her GC as her estranged DIL is being vile, I was told that this is not the case. They live very close to each other too which makes it very cruel, my friend’s son is so ground down by his ex he doesn’t have the strength to fight her. It is very sad.

After going through the court process with my other half and his ex wife I wouldn't bother. It's all very well getting a court order but enforcement is another matter. He has a court order but if they have a disagreement she withholds the children to spite him. He goes to court and spends more money she gets a slap on the wrist and carries on doing as she wants, hence he has a huge debt to pay and achieved nothing. The children are getting older now and are working it out for themselves, they realise the holiday they didnt get to go on with is was not our fault!!!
Going to court would also antagonize my sons so not worth it and I cant afford it either.

In a court of law, from the age of 10, a child's feelings/ desires are generally listened to and taken into consideration.

My own son at the age of 10 was causing a lot of trouble for me and the stress of this was affecting my health (MS), I asked socservs for advice and their solution was to hold a case conference which my (poisonous) mother managed to get involved in and said she wanted to take him away from me and raise him herself.

I was not a particularly young mum and there were no red flags associated with my parenting, in fact I also had a3yr old at the time. My 10yr old was asked whether he would like to live with his grandmother, he said yes and he's lived with her for the past 22yrs. My wishes as his mother/carer were totally disregarded. I did continue to raise my younger child like an only child and he's a very kind, considerate, loving young man of 25 now.

We did later discover that my elder son had some mh issues and no matter how much I fought to have him returned to me, it was always what 'he' wanted that the courts bowed down to, his brother's desire for them both to be together with me was never considered.

So, basically, if it suits the courts and social services to take a child's feelings into consideration, they will, if it doesn't suit them, then they won't.

I last saw my eldest grandson when he was 7. He’s over 30 now and when I tried to get in touch once he was an adult, I got a reply from his step father telling me to leave him alone. It broke my heart when he was 7 and again when he was an adult. I will never try again as I could not face further heartbreak.

I fully understand your pain. I have done the same for 3 years, sent cards and gifts but have never known if GC got them. It is heartbreakingly cruel when all you want is for your GC to know that you care deeply about them, and that you didn't abandon them.

I understood from when my daughter was in family court a couple of years ago that grandparents have no rights but rely on their children - the parents of the grandchildren - to arrange contact with them.

I feel for you, and know how it feels x

I absolutely understand what you are going through. My stepson has three children; two are his biological children, the oldest has been his daughter since she was 15 months old; she is now 10. He and his ex partner split some time ago and she totally uses the children as a weapon. The first time she stopped him and us from seeing the children for over six months. The eldest child disclosed abuse from her Mother and so my stepson involved Social Services, in retaliation his ex stopped us all from seeing the children. We now haven’t seen the children for almost 15 months. The court has once again ordered contact, but it has not been specified in relation to the eldest child, like it was before. My Stepson has decided that he can’t go through this misery again and so is not going to pursue seeing the eldest child unless the Court agrees to give him parental responsibility over her. I completely get where he is coming from, but it breaks my heart. We have always treated all three children completely equally and out of sheer spite we are prevented from seeing the eldest child just because my stepson’s ex can. I know the youngest child will almost certainly have forgotten us, the middle will be shy, understandably enough, but I dread the thought of collecting the two little ones and the oldest realising she can’t come (we have been specified as the ones to do pickups). My heart is breaking. I do hope that things get sorted out for you at some point ?

Very difficult situation to be in for anybody.
I think when couples divorce they often forget that there is other family extra to just the two of them , or whoever has custody assumes that whatever they feel for the ex partner must automatically be passed on to their parents and extended family, which is sad.
If for whatever reason, the parents split up, both sides should remember that they should work together to bring the children up as one group, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as physical or mental abuse of the partner or the children.
I think that you need to be careful here - if feelings are still raw, if you involve the other grandparents, their contact may also be cut off. I know that when I got divorced, his parents , in my mind were part of him and the same package , so I really didn't want my child to be "contaminated " by contact with his family!
either you could donate towards Christmas/birthday presents with them or open up a savings account on behalf of the grandchildren and put in what you would have spent on a present then either make it available when they go to Uni or at a certain age, or donate towards a charity in their name.
A friend of mine buys a birthday card each year for her grand daughter who has been adopted out of the family , in the hope that they will contact her at some time in the future.

In 1984 when I was 29 I had a friend about 15 years older than me. She had a 4 year old GD to whom she was very close indeed. A couple of years later her son split up with his wife and contact was completely broken off. Both GD and GM were distraught. Well she did get some visitation rights eventually but it was a very drawn out process and did involve the courts.

Fast forward to 2018 and the GD now in her 40’s, won a competition for a holiday in Dubai. She invited her now quite elderly Gran whom she loves dearly to accompany her. I thought that was lovely.

www.yours.co.uk/life/home/grandparents-rights-in-the-uk/

states sadly that grandparents do not have a right to see their grandchildren in England and Wales. This wording makes me suspect that Scots Law is different on this point, but according to www.thorntons-law.co.uk/for-you/thorntons-family-law-divorce-solicitors/child-issues/grandparents-rights-in-scotland there is no difference.

You might find the site helpful if you are wondering about a court application.

I am sorry you are in this situation. I would not in your place risk making the situation worse by making a court application or involving the other set of grandparents.

My father was domineering, and ar no stage, did I or my siblings know we could look up our granparents. So at 18, I found their address and went. They did not talk about his nonsense. It was something trivial. But having lost out on a relationship with my g ps was down to him. Court action would have done nothing but make him worse. My g ps did nothing wrong to us at all. Karma got him in the end, he lies in his grave with no visitors or flowers. Probably quite warm too...

There is no example in case law of any GRP case ever being enforced. So if the parents break the court order there is next to no likelihood of a judge actually doing anything about it.

If two parents are viewed to be healthy and stable their decisions should be final.

Had a similar issue with family members a while ago - wont go into the circumstances but after consulting a family law firm they were told that under current UK law, grandparents don’t have automatic rights to see their grandchildren. The solicitor arranged for a mediation assessment meeting between the parents and grandparents - didn’t get anywhere with it, so they had to petition the court for permission to make a child contact arrangement.

This involved making a statement as to their previous relationship with the children - things like whether they had regular contact and whether they undertook child care etc. They also had to say what contact they wanted and why. It was made clear from the start that the children’s interests came before anything else, that the application would be denied if it was deemed to be disruptive enough to cause harm and that the courts’ decision was final with no right of appeal unless on a point of law.

There are many cases like this on gransnet and sometimes the grandchildren seek out their grandparents later in their life. Admittedly they are older and a new relationship needs to be built up but the joy of a loved one returning must be wonderful.

My DH’s DS and his wife (and her family) abused us on social media. I was undergoing investigation for bowel cancer and my DH’s other son was in hospital the other side of the world. He is fit and well now. We were abused because they thought my DH should travel all that way to see his DS and leave me with premature baby twins to look after. My DH said that he couldn’t leave me and he didn’t have the funds for the travel. I was blamed and we were blocked on SM having called me words I have never used in my life. Seven years on, we have never heard of them or the DGC, who are now adults. We have moved, but could be easily found if they wanted to. Fortunately we have six more DGC who really love us. It’s just one of those things and we try not to think about it. Their loss. My DH now wants a simple cremation when he dies so they stay away.

By the way my DB also tells me recently he bitterly regrets the fact his children will have no memories of grandparents, aunts & uncles especially at Christmas and family do’s like we’ve got and had as kids. Maybe you should remind your son his children won’t have those family memories either if he’s stupid enough to stay away in those early years. He’s also robbing you of those memories of seeing his children grow up! I’d print this off and send it to him, he might not see the bigger picture now but trust me he will when he gets older!

So sad for you HEARTWRENCHED. ?

Hello Whiff, my late mother was in the same position as you many years ago when my DB split up with his partner the mother of his daughter. My mum had had a very close relationship with her granddaughter until she was 4 then suddenly she was told along with my DB you won’t get to see her again. My mum was heartbroken so kept sending my niece (as did I) presents and cards at birthdays & Xmas for about 4 years but we were never sure she got them as we didn’t get so much as a card saying thank you. Then one day when child was 8 my DM got a vile letter saying for us to stop all cards and presents as they weren’t wanted and would end up in the bin. So my DM stopped and said if ever her DGD knocked at her door when she turned 18 she would take her out and treat her then plus show her her mother’s vile letter she had written to my mum!
Well that day did come around, DGD knocked on my DM door at 20 by which time my DM had unfortunately had a massive stroke and was paralysed all down one side. My SF invited her in, but Mum said she could see she wasn’t really interested in her when she realised my mum was paralysed etc but they gave her some money and mum explained she had wanted to be in touch all those years (being careful not to say anything negative about her mother). My niece seemed a bit money mad and a drama Queen, when my mother passed away she annoyed me at the funeral and I cut her off and that’s the last of her I saw. I personally think she was after money but she came unstuck. It’s such a shame it’s your son as well, if it were me I would write him a letter and somehow make sure it got to him only and appeal to his better nature and hope one day he sees sense. My brother moved abroad and started a new life, having more children again my mum never saw them after 3 years old but it’s only now DM has gone and DB is in his early 60’s that he tells me he regrets the fact his children have no family (apart from me) over here or abroad and worries about when his kids have no grandparents or family they can or will be able to turn too especially after him and now his now ex wife pass have passed.

I honestly can't even imagine being estranged from my beautiful five grandchildren (from three of my children). We all travel over four hundred miles (return journey) to see each other every six weeks or so.

It must be devastating for you and your grandchildren.

Definitely keep a book for them, highlighting your thoughts and open a savings account for them for when they're older. They'll always know then that they're not forgotten and you have practically reached out to them. It will make all the difference.

My nephew is a Judge and he told us that courts would normally make an order for grandchildren / grandparents to meet each other and spend time with each other as they had before any breakdown of marriage of the parents or if the grandparents separated providing there was “no just cause why they should not”.

Smileless, fair enough. Perhaps different jurisdictions use different terminology. I think the intention of the laws, whatever they are called, is to ensure the continuity of an established relationship between GPs and GC (where this is reasonable). This is not a decision a minor child should be given control of though, IMO. I just don't think young children are always aware of the issues at hand (which they shouldn't be and shouldn't have to deal with) and they shouldn't be put in that position.