Child's wishes

CafeAuLait you did do the right thing, especially by checking first.

Estranging doesn't make us immune from grief. I loved the people who hurt me. If I didn't I'd have protected myself a long time before.

A funeral is not the right opportunity to heal an estrangement but you reached out and they answered. That was an open door for anyone to reach out in future and if no one wanted to, it's an opportunity for a little forgiveness and letting go of bad feeling.

Thank you for sharing that CafeAuLait. When our ES emailed me after 7 years of silence, it did go through our minds that he may have been thinking about connecting again.

It was that that distressed me so much because the thought of having any contact with him terrifies me. It took every ounce of strength I had to put myself back together again and it was the same for Mr. S.

I could never trust him again and even if I could, I don't think the fear that it could happen again would ever leave me.

I miss the son he was and it's hard knowing that we'll never know our only GC but that's preferable to living with uncertainty and fear.

I admit I once did go to a family funeral I probably shouldn't have gone to. Why? It felt like the right thing to do. They were still family and I did want to show support in a sad situation. I did care. I think I also wondered if the death might affect their view of what really mattered and make them inclined to want to connect again. In hindsight I think it was the wrong thing to do. We did check ahead of time if we should come or not and we were told we were welcome. But they were estranged and nothing had changed. Maybe they aren't even family anymore. At the time I was coming from a good place. In hindsight, maybe misguided. If I could wind back the clock I wouldn't go.

I think you're right love0c that he didn't do it to hurt us. I doubt he actually considered our feelings TBH and it was more to do with easing his own conscience.

I did give this some thought Smileless and I think it rather strange. After so many years, why contact you at all? Why was he even interested? I would find it hard to believe it was to hurt you after no contact for years.

"Sometimes attempts to try and rebuild relationships causes more distress...." I agree Iam.

Lat year after 7 years of estrangement I received an email from our ES 2 days after my mum died. This was not IMO an attempt to rebuild our relationship but even so, did cause distress.

A couple of months ago, so 1 year later Mr. S. received an email from our ES following the death of his mum. Not the shock that mine was because we kind of expected it, but upsetting none the less.

Family breakdown and estrangement come from pain and add to it. Memories can be distorted. Each individual has her/his own memory of what led up to estrangement, often dissimilar. Some individuals have ‘difficult’ personalities, addictions, mood swings. Sometimes attempts to try and rebuild relationships causes more distress, makes the situation even more intractable. Court proceedings are likely to make things worse

That was our decision too Allsorts but I do understand why some do go to court. It must be traumatic when children suddenly lose the GP's they've come to know and love.

"I decided to put them first" it's a shame that some parents don't do the same.

I would not go to court over this. I’m afraid it does more harm to the children, as their little lives are made more traumatic. I decided to put them first. Don’t expect a sudden visit and everything wiped out, missed sharing their lives and being part of it. Just hope they are happy.

Spain seems to follow the same guidelines as other countries for gpr

Grandparents have the right to request visitation and judge will evaluate what is best for the child.

In the case of divorce, the rights of parental visitation takes precedence and then other parties are taken into account

expatsmagazine.org/the-rights-of-grandparents-over-their-grandchildren/

If only we'd lived in Spain Soul.

Soul you are right and both families should have the right to see grandchildren.
Some Adult children just have different views from their parents and just don't get on. If the Adult child stops a grandparent from seeing the children then the children will feel abandoned by the grandparent.
The only reason I would say to stop the grandparent seeing the children would be if the actual parents had been abused whilst growing up or physical /emotional abuse plus domestic violence had been happening within the relationships.
Nothing like that had ever happened between myself and daughter so I cannot see her reasons for failing to communicate with me and not wanting me to see my grandchildren.

In Spain, where we live, grandparents and even aunts & uncles have a legal right of visit to grandchildren. They see it as a right for children to know both families. What they do when they are older, is up to them, but I would never want my grandchildren to think I had abandoned them. Just because their parents don't want to have anything to do with you doesn't mean you can't have a relationship with your grandchildren. I would take them to court. Fight for your and your granchildren's rights!!

Heartwretched, in answer to you question, yes the Family Court in private or public law has to consider the wishes and feelings of the children.
Grandparents have no rights. Parents have responsibilities to meet their children’s needs. Most parents who separate, ensure the children maintain significant relationships. The situations that end up in the family court usually involve either domestic abuse or emotionally intractable parental relationships. It’s messy and the parents will be expected to cooperate with mediation (unless abuse is present) .

If your attempts to re-establish relationships with the parents have failed, I can’t see the benefit to the children, to you or their parents of you trying to get contact via the Family Court. I fear this world entrench the alienation. Going via the other grandparents isn’t a straight way of dealing with this. It may help for you to book a consultation with a family mediator. An experienced, independent view may help you.

Hithere. Only you knows how you feel and how you have been treated. No one has the right to call you cruel or cold hearted. You have had to do what is right for you.

Life is short and you must life the life you want. And fill that life with people you love and care for people who love and care for you. People who just put you down all the time and don't love or care for you aren't worth it.

You have shown great strength and courage to rise about your up bringing. Be proud of what you have achieved and who you are . ?

I think if, at this point, I got the right kind of communication from MIL that showed she was willing to hear us and self reflect, I might cautiously dip my toes in the water. But she doesn't want to communicate with me and DH won't communicate with her. So that's probably not going to happen.

We did get a letter once from a distant relative urging my DH to make amends with his mother. That just told us more about the one sided story she'd heard than anything. Why is the burden on DH to make the first move? DH wasn't the one who announced an estrangement. Yes, from what I have heard from DH, it was officially declared, and not by him. It only hurt the situation.

Advising to keep sending cards, letters, flowers, etc - it is very dangerous and can backfire big time

As another EAC, this is my experience - every experience is different

I tried talking to my narc parents, compromise, talk to them again, tell them clearly they were overstepping (as they asked me to tell them), time outs, give them another chance, talk again..... wash, rinse and do it all over again for decades - their selective amnesia was the obstacle to address the issues

They have been cut off for a decade +
I received an email from them with yet the same message, a week ago or so.

1. Medical emergency that is life threatening - but they did not want to be dramatic (cry me a river)

2. Because of point 1 above, it was a pity we do not communicate and they do know what happened to break the relationship (yet, our chats for years are forgotten again, what a surprise - not)

3. All their lives, all they did what was best for me (same blah blah blah i heard all my life)

4. They are super proud of me as I achieved everything I wanted in life so easily (rolling my eyes, nothing in my life as been easy, I had to fight hard for it, I earned it! Their statement is in fact an insult and show how out of touch they are/were with me growing up)

5. I owe them one yet last communication to tell them why I dont talk to them (please keep waiting, no reply from me)

So, same old story.
They have learned nothing, same old broken record, same old poor me my daughter is so mean I wasnt perfect and I dont deserve this

This letter achieves the opposite - I will continue to stay away.

I will be called cold hearted, cruel, even mentally unbalanced by some gransnetters.

I only have one life to live and I deserve to be happy.

Effalump, I can only speak for my own situation as estrangement can have so many causes, some fixable, some not. From my perspective, things were never that bad and communication might have fixed things. I'm someone who will talk things out and I tried. It turns out DH's family don't. As far as I know to this day, there has been no attempt on their part to reach an understanding. I do not understand that.

It's been at least 15 years now. In the early years a bunch of flowers might have shown some attempt and willingness to communicate. For the first ten years I'd probably have been willing to communicate but I would approach with caution until I knew things were going to be different. At this point, I just don't see anything changing. They still don't communicate and I'm no longer willing to get involved. The messenger always gets shot anyway.

I wish estrangement was as easy as sending someone flowers and moving on without placing blame. Every single instance of estrangement is different and complex and reasons vary.

As for allowing children to decide, 5 years ago my child may have said yes. My mother was well on her way into brainwashing her into hating me. I would have had to fight tooth and nail to keep her away.

Now, my children want nothing to do with her. What she did to my children is unforgivable and I almost lost one because of her.

I agree with bibbity

I understand it is heartbreaking for grandparents cut off unfairly.

Children have the right to know both parents unless it is ruled otherwise in court.

The problem is that children's parents are responsible for safeguarding their welfare and as such are the ones who decide who their children spend time with.

This is why under law only parents are automatically granted leave to get visitation with children.

Grandparents have to ask for leave and must prove a strong bond to do so.

The reason for this is sadly that children cannot always tell a person's character so the parents are the ones who are responsible to decide who is safe.

The reason why the system works as it does, is to safeguard vulnerable children from abusive family members. Whether that's a lot of cases or only a few, it does the job it is meant to.

I was abused in one way by a grandparent and my mother was abusive to me and my children emotionally.

I realise this doesn't help with abusive parents who have cut off family members though. I can only hope the safeguarding improvements that have been put in place in recent years continue to find new ways to keep children safe.

effalump we have cut off MIL. She can send all the cards, send all the messages and apologise all she wants. It won’t be acknowledged. We do not want a relationship with her and do not want her to be apart of our families life.

I would be really annoyed if someone was telling her that the things in your comment would sort everything out.

I don’t want anything to do with her but I would think it very wrong for anyone to give her false hope like that.

If only it were that simple effalump
I have tried to contact both my sons to resolve issues and my eldest said "we've never had a good relationship so let's leave it there" .. news to me!! My youngest told me if he was younger he'd get himself adopted .. dont understand that at all and he has blocked every source of contact so I can only post letters, I tried and got no reply. Cant do anymore than that. Sadly my 2 youngest GC are casualties of this as they are so young they wouldn't know who I was as seeing them when things were ok was difficult due to distance and me having to do all the visiting, it was too much trouble for them to visit me. The eldest 2 at least I get to see on video chats through their mum. They are 9 and 11 and want contact with me although my son has done his best to stop it. Sad doesn't even start to cover it

Send your sons or daughters flowers and don't aportion blame. Just try to get talking to them and take things slowly.

Sadly effalump it just is not that simple for many posters on here; if only it were!

Gran16: you are right it is all very well going through the court process but to have it enforced if the children are withheld is another matter. It all takes time as well and money with so much stress involved. My daughter would also be antagonized that I had taken the legal option to try and have contact with the GC and knowing her she would tell the children I was trying to take them from her it's them that would suffer.

Effalump : yes it is sad to have estrangement from GC particularly when you have been in their lives for some years.
Sorry it has nothing to do with pride if only that was the problem. Send some flowers and don't talk of blame is what you have said.
I expect you want to be helpful although unless you have lived with even the most basic of estrangement you will have no idea what it can be like. Sometimes it comes about because of divorce or relationship breakdown and in some cases a son or daughter having MH problems and spiralling out of control because of substance abuse and neglecting their children, either way it is traumatic for those concerned.
Having to jump through everything you have to before you even get the opportunity to get a court appointment is bad enough and then waiting to find out if you can get that precious contact to see your GC is another thing and it all costs money.
If like you say a bunch of flowers could fix things how easy it would be, because as you say there are too many losses, and grand-parents can go and damaged children can be taken in to care and yes it is all sadly so much too late but realistically
it is going on every day but many do not have to think about it because it is not happening to them.