Gransnet forums

Estrangement

The torture of going NC - nobody wins

(131 Posts)
blindedscience Sun 07-Nov-21 03:55:04

I've been estranged from my mother and step-father for 5 years now. I justified the choice as protecting my kids from the same damage I suffered as a child. It was a choice borne of desperation, and no one "won" as a result of it.
I see a recurring narrative here - one of refusal to allow the AC to win by refusing them to establish their own narrative. My hope is to convince you that, if they've truly gone NC, your AC isn't trying to win. NC isn't a tactic - it's a disengagement. They've completely left the field behind.

My story might not apply to you. Hopefully it'll give you some perspective. If not, I simply ask for your empathy throughout.
My family had it in for me as a child. My stepfather did everything he could to ensure my home wasn't a haven and my self-esteem never got too high. It was clear his own child was the one expected to do great things. I learned to evade him, but poor self-esteem meant I was bullied both at home and school.
My mother, for her part, I believe actually cared, but did little to protect me. In the vein of tough love/teaching me about the world, she also prevented me from getting my driver's license, and set up artificial hurdles for me to attend college.
At the end of Junior High School I broke. Low self-esteem manifested as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a scar I carried for decades.
But, here's something important: because of my NPD, I've learned not to trust any of my memories from high school or my early adulthood, unless I can find physical artifacts or other people who can recount the same situation.
As I began to wake up from my NPD and I sought treatment, I realized I had put my early life to bed by accepting it as simply a case of neglect. My therapist, however, insisted that I consider it might have been abuse, instead. Re-litigating situations in this light, combined with my realization that my step-father's disrespect for me never ended, caused me intense distress that I needed my mother to help me work through.
It's at this point that my mother completely failed me. Instead of listening to my story/narrative, and helping me to understand her own version of the story, she shut down and refused to talk to me. Around that time, the family superstar started in with their attacks, and other members of the family began attacking me as well. Their "story" was that I was having a nervous breakdown and nothing I remembered ever happened.
It's not all bad. I had other siblings who confided in me that they remembered the same things I did, and that I got the worst of my tyrant step-father's behaviors, but that they weren't comfortable getting in the middle of the conflict.
I had small children, and they were already beginning to notice the favoritism for the superstar's kids. I went NC to protect myself and them.
And it's been gloriously peaceful. I no longer wake up in the middle of the night seething with rage over how I was treated, and what I feared for my kids. I'm sure my justification of doing it for my kids is only part of the story, though - protecting my own emotional state probably also made the decision easy.
In my own case, my family wasn't fulfilling any function in my life. Individual members were nice to be around, but the family as a whole was toxic.

But, there's one thing I'd like you to take away from my story:
My decision to go NC was borne from an inability of my family to engage with my story. There was a basic unwillingness to hear the story, give me any sort of credit for confronting my demons (which, I assure you, was hard as hell), or consider that there might be any reason for me to be unhappy with my childhood. Instead of addressing that there were very real issues going on presently, they got fixated on trying to refute things that happened decades ago, sometimes just telling me to get over it.
I didn't need an apology (which I see many of you bristling over) - all I needed was someone to tell me a different version of the story that wasn't an attempt to ridicule my own.
I'd suggest one thing and one thing alone if estrangement is hurting you - contact your AC and indicate that you'd like to listen to what they have to say, and hopefully they won't mind if you ask questions. Make sure you listen, and your questions are for clarification and aren't challenging their story. At this phase what is most needed is your listening and understanding their story, even if you make it clear you don't agree with the details.
Believe me, your AC knows you're not perfect. If they've gone NC, it means they've given up on trying to communicate with you. Resolution relies on communication resuming, and you can't do that if you won't listen to or understand their story.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 07:48:58

I found the original articleni read and it's horrifying

news.isst-d.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-false-memory-syndrome-foundation/

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 09:36:46

If you do a google search for 'Court cases relating to FMS freedomfromthepast there's a lot of material available.

I challenged your stance that FMS doesn't exist VS I did not challenge you on your personal experiences. Our ES has made accusations yes, but I never said he has accused us of abuse because he never has.

"if you are certain in your mind" how would you feel if with regard to your childhood this was to be said to you, if you are certain in your mind that what you claim to have happened did happen.

Offensive isn't it.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 09:53:38

Smileless

I do not dispute anything your son has or hasn't said. So I have not invalidated you.

You simply cannot know what memories exist in his mind.

If he has never accused you of abuse then I don't understand why you are pulling me up. it is false memories of abuse that I am denying and have denied in every comment.

I haven't made it personal to my estrangement. I could say that my mum denies any of her abuse happened. The reason I haven't brought that up is because I know the truth and that's all I need.

I could have used that fact to say, from the beginning, that comments are invalidating me by saying children and adults have false memories of abuse. I haven't done that.

What I have done is highlighted that false memories of abuse have never been proven and that the mere idea that they exist has been enough to get rape and child abuse cases thrown out of court.

As you are probably aware, most sexual violence is committed by people close to the victims. So the idea that people close to the victims could be found innocent and their victims have to exist close to them and never feel safe is disgusting to me.

So you can either hear what I'm actually saying or not but I will not stop fighting against it.

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 13:43:56

I am disagreeing with you VS when you say that FMS doesn't exist. Why do you assume when someone disagrees with you that they are pulling you up? Do you not understand how debates and an exchange of views works?

False memories are not restricted to the issue of abuse. It's a sad fact of life that not all those who are guilty of sexual offences are found guilty and there's no way, as far as I'm aware, of ascertaining what percentage of those failed cases are due to the defence using an argument of FMS.

You've made this all about abuse. I have on this thread referred only to our ES's FM's of experiences he never had, but his wife has; experiences VS not abuse.

I never used the word abuse.

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 13:51:46

Are you seriously telling me that you don't see that saying to someone "if you are certain in your mind" isn't invalidatingshock

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 14:03:47

Smileless2012

Are you seriously telling me that you don't see that saying to someone "if you are certain in your mind" isn't invalidatingshock

Obviously that is just me accepting that's what you think. I didn't invalidate you, I just didn't validate you.

Also, by pulling me up I am speaking of you constantly accusing me of invalidating you. I haven't. Facts disagree with your understanding of your experience, not the experience itself.

Obviously no, I will never accept an unproven idea that abuse memories can be false. The foundation that spread this dangerous idea tried to prove it and failed for 27 years.
It is not am official diagnosis anywhere for good reason.

I hope you did read the article I posted about the people involved. It's deeply upsetting for abuse survivors and they played a huge part in damaging victims cases in court and they also did huge damage to victims confidence in coming forward in the first place.

Many feminist groups were against them and the damage they have done to victims of sexual violence.

Again though, you can believe as you wish. I just am sad that you would align yourself with those ideas and I am sad I can't convince you how dangerous they are.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 14:14:50

Also to add Smileless you brought false memory syndrome into the discussion so it wasn't a leap for me to assume you were speaking of abuse because I know the definition of false memory syndrome..

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 14:33:36

It was a leap and not one you should have assumed to be correct VS.

Accepting that there is such a thing as FMS is not aligning myself to anything . "especially one of childhood sexual abuse"; especially not exclusively.

As I posted earlier FMS isn't just about sexual abuse which if you know what the definition is, you should know already.

Allsorts Thu 11-Nov-21 15:33:56

Violet, why do you persist in trying to convince people of your abuse. You believe it happened and it seems your mother doesn’t. You both think you are right. You keep on pursuing your own experience, others have their own. Now you have broken away can’t you focus on the children you have and leave the past where it is. You are free which is what you wanted, you cannot alter your mothers views and her perception of things. If you wanted freedom by going no contact you don’t appear to have it. Why keep posting articles to push your point home? Others are dealing with their own.
This forum is for support it would be nice to remember that,

Whiff Thu 11-Nov-21 16:05:12

Well said Allsorts.

Chewbacca Thu 11-Nov-21 16:08:32

Well said Allsorts, it does seem like double standards doesn't it?

Summerlove Thu 11-Nov-21 16:19:42

Support for who?
Obviously not all

Smileless2012 Thu 11-Nov-21 17:13:43

"Support for who? Obviously not all" I agree Summerlove but suspect not for the reason you've posted this.

Good post Allsorts and yes Chewbacca double standards indeed.

freedomfromthepast Thu 11-Nov-21 17:25:06

"If you do a google search for 'Court cases relating to FMS freedomfromthepast there's a lot of material available."

Yes I found all of that. I was looking for clinical studies that would support a diagnosis of FMS as a psychological illness.

Everything I am finding leads me to believe that False Memory Syndrome is a theory used mostly by the legal system and not fully accepted by mental health professionals. It also seems that it is used for children who are reporting sexual of violent abuse as a child.

While I do believe that our memories can be influenced, I will use caution when using the label False Memory Syndrome in the future now that I have been able to learn more about it, especially in instances where one is not accusing someone of sexual or violent abuse as I do not want to minimize the tragic experience of both the accusers and those being accused falsely.

Allsorts; Gransnet is a discussion forum, not a support forum. Though, as you know, there is a support thread available.

As such, it should be expected that discussions will happen and people will talk about their past experiences and how it influences them still today. That does not mean that they spend their entire lives dwelling or do not have freedom.

Any poster who is no longer enjoying a discussion can choose to leave said discussion at any time.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 17:28:49

It would be lovely if we could all just move on with our lives and in many ways some of us of course have.

I support anyone going through estrangement, my thoughts and advice may differ to others and sometimes that is based on my experience but often it isn't and just my thoughts as a parent.

I will always advocate for help and healing of abuse survivors. It's a part of who I am, past present and future and accepting that about myself and discussing it openly and honestly helps me.

Iam64 Thu 11-Nov-21 17:30:11

Allsorts, thanks for your post. Family relationships are complex. Interview 5 adult children with the same parents, who grew up together about their childhood and get 5 different life stories.
Estrangement is a painful process. Understandably, people often find it difficult, even impossible to move from their defensive accusatory place.
If we are to offer support, let’s try and do that because we don’t want to cause further pain to others.

Chewbacca Thu 11-Nov-21 17:32:06

It's a part of who I am, past present and future and accepting that about myself and discussing it openly and honestly helps me.

And yet you seem to feel the need to question, minimise and dismiss others who try to do the same. Why?

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 17:37:43

It's interesting to me that the words "defensive accusatory place" were used.

Offering different perspectives should really be seen as helpful. Someone telling you that doing something or saying something might not be a good idea is a form of support.

As I said somewhere else recently, we can just allow others their thoughts and opinions and simply state our own.

I only argue a point when I believe it may cause harm to someone, especially a child or an abuse survivor.

We are all allowed to use these threads and generally most of us are better off sharing our thoughts here rather than burdening people we care about with them or any stress and worry impacting our lives otherwise.

That's why the estrangement forum exists. So that these things can be discussed openly and honestly and we can learn from each other.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 17:39:27

Chewbacca

^It's a part of who I am, past present and future and accepting that about myself and discussing it^ openly and honestly helps me.

And yet you seem to feel the need to question, minimise and dismiss others who try to do the same. Why?

I haven't done that.

Anyone can read the whole thread and either understand what I am saying or twist it to use it against me but the intention behind what I am saying is not negative and what I say is based on facts.

Chewbacca Thu 11-Nov-21 18:21:08

I don't agree that you haven't/don't do that I'm afraid vs. I know that, historically, you haven't brooked any questioning of your experiences in the past and have seen them as invalidation; or disbelief, which, until I saw you use it, wasn't a term that I'd actually ever come across before. I remember clearly that you became very angry with me personally, when I stated that there are always "3 sides of truth"; yours, theirs and the "actual truth". But now you see other's situations as being fair game to be dissected, questioned and analysed as discussed openly and honestly so that we can learn from each other. For that to work, it can't just be a one way street where others are giving a grilling and their experiences questioned. But it's good to know that you find "defensive accusatory place" an interesting term to use. That's a start.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 18:28:19

Chewbacca I actually used invalidation first to point out what was happening to another poster, not myself.

Yes I do know and understand what invalidation is.

I'm usually pretty patient when people question my experiences and willing to clarify/answer questions.

This is not a witch hunt, I can't do magic. I can't make FMS real or something that wasn't use to invalidate abuse victims. I'd appreciate not being the subject of one.

Iam64 Thu 11-Nov-21 18:29:42

I’m the person who talked about the difficulties people find in trying to move/or resisting attempts to help them move from a defensive, accusatory place.
What do you mean VioletSky when you say you found that “interesting”.

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 18:33:31

Iam64

I’m the person who talked about the difficulties people find in trying to move/or resisting attempts to help them move from a defensive, accusatory place.
What do you mean VioletSky when you say you found that “interesting”.

Because I tend to read what is written and not assume people's motivation.

Chewbacca Thu 11-Nov-21 18:36:04

confused

VioletSky Thu 11-Nov-21 18:40:45

Anyway,

Discussion = Good

Witch Hunt = Bad

But obviously how we go forward isn't up to me