Sign for grandchildren

I don't see anything wrong with what you said Violetsky, but I do think branding it "unforgiveable" and wrong, is wrong.

My Mother also estranged me from family members and even from herself once, so I hope you will not be put off posting. There are so many different angles to all of this and I hope people can respond with kindness and not react badly, to each other's experiences.

It's not as if we are the relative who caused the pain, after all. We are just people, doing our best to get by and looking for support from likeminded people on a support forum.We are all someone's daughter, most of us are Mothers. We should seek common ground, not focus on differences.

CafeauLait you are right. It could backfire.

Onward - what healed your relationship with your mother? Did she just change her mind one day?

When my MIL saw my children one year she told them how much she missed them. When she had gone, the joking and laughter from the children was full on. They know she estranged us, not the other way around, and that she had an open invitation to visit before that. Grandchildren see right through that sort of thing.

My Mother is mentally ill and elderly , needing help with things now. She says I estranged her and I think she cannot admit what she did. She is confused about a lot of things, so I feel sorry for her. I know what happened and my husband knows how upset I was when she estranged, but she doesn't seem to remember it! My kids know what happened too and were very upset by it.

Thank you all who have come to my defense I really do appreciate it.

OnwardandUpward I really do understand how awful that is and getting the silent treatment with no understanding about why. We are all influenced by our own experiences but I do try very hard to think about it from all angles.

My little (big) family is not at risk from this petition but the thought of my mother or anyone like her getting that level of control genuinely terrifies me.

I wish I knew another solution for those who have lost good family relationships without opening up that sort of risk but I just don't.

I wish that I could feel this would genuinely put control into the hands of the grandchildren themselves on who they choose to spend time with but I just don't.

I'm sure my MIL has convinced herself we estranged her. She won't fool my children though. They have heard me invite her.
Having said that, I do not know the words that were used between her and my husband during that critical conversation, though what he reports is pretty clearly her deciding she was out.

I have no idea as to where my PIL are with health. I guess if they want to reach out, they will.

Your voice is important VioletSky. You bring a valid perspective. It might not apply to all or even most situations, but it is important to consider for those where it does apply.

Yes, Violetsky so I have been in the middle of being estranged by the generation above and below me , though fortunately not at the same time. I do think that my Mother's behaviour influenced my son as he was very hurt by her disappearance and became very ill as a result of it. I think she showed him that if you want to hurt your family, you estrange- and sure enough, he has.

From my perspective, it would be great to see my GC but I don't think my son in his current MH state would cope at all and that would definitely be bad for their little family. Though at the moment he has them isolated completely from everyone.

That's sad about your PIL Cafeaulait I think it's not always what we say but how other people percieve what we said. Or maybe they got offended by something and withdrew without resolving it, but then put the blame on you/me?

Onward - oh, she's offended. She wanted a level of control in my life, household and over my children that I found suffocating and inappropriate. She wouldn't accept it any other way so opted out. I'm afraid I'm not prepared to live my life on her terms, at my expense, to meet her wants.

My suggestion of GP's and GC using social media and other means of communication to maintain their existing relationship CafeAuLait, was to point out that actual visits could be minimised but the relationship they have could continue.

There was no suggestion that this should be forced and I have never suggested that GC be forced to see their GP's if they don't want too. I posted earlier on this thread that any reasonable GP wouldn't want that to be the case.

It could of course backfire on GP's going to court for contact to maintain the relationship they have with their GC, just as it could backfire on the parents who prevented that relationship from continuing.

Ah, controlling people are so difficult! cafeaulait That's shocking and also unsurprising. I wonder if my Mother's problem was something like that. She kept to it proudly for some time and then became scared during Covid and started talking again as if nothing had happened.

I think, with controlling people you cannot afford to give an inch or they will try to take a mile. They often sulk when they don't get their own way, like children. I think you have done the best thing in living your life on your terms and not being a prisoner of theirs, yet inviting them over on your terms. Your PiL have to accept it's your home, your rules. You have the kids and they are welcome to visit on your terms.

I was very fortunate with my inlaws that they were more emotionally healthy than my own parents and never ever demanded anything or tried to control me.

I can't see how it will backfire on parents unless they have a child who has told them they want to see GPs and the parents can't offer a good reason to the child about why this isn't a good idea. Then they might have a grown child who resents the situation. However, I think we all have something we feel bad about when it comes to decisions our parents made for us.

You've provided one example on how it could backfire on the parents CafeAuLait.

Curious how else you think it could backfire on parents?

I have no skin in this game due to the ages of my children but wouldn't have felt threatened anyway. I'd just have put enough geographical distance between myself and the GPs that it would have been impossible.

Then again, if the children experienced the relationship with their GPs positively and wanted to see them (and there was no reason, for their welfare, for me to say no), I'd find a way to make it work for some sort of relationship to be maintained.

Cafeaulait Controlling people are usually very insecure and when they can't control you, sometimes they will try to control how others see you. I've experienced this kind of toxicity a few times. All you can really do is be the best version of yourself, whatever they want to say about you and then everyone will see you're a kind and good person - and they will look like an absolute ass for saying nasty things behind your back. Well, I guess this is what has happened for you as your kids can see through it, thankfully!

Onward, I am past caring, though still feel a bit sad about the situation. MIL can tell whatever story she wants. Anyone who wants to lap it up without question, no room for them. At the end of the day, I don't lose sleep over my part and that's what matters. I tried.

The last time I saw my MIL I won't outline here. The time before the ultimate break I saw her at my youngest's christening. She sulked at the back of the church. Because of her behaviour at the previous christening, everyone just left her there rather than asking her to come forward. After a while, at the end, I approached her as I thought she'd want to see and hold the baby. She hadn't met her before as I was in ICU after that birth. She stormed off across the car park and left, so never got the chance. The next time she called my husband (at work, which he was sick of because he was trying to work), the blow up happened. It's the only time he's ever stood up to her.

For a while I wrote to her with photos to update her on the family. Then I stopped as I was just writing into a void. I told my husband it was his job now. He never did.

Obviously my youngest never knew that set of GPs. There's only two children with any memory. But she set up the eldest as the scapegoat (another thing that made me a bad DIL, not allowing that to happen and standing up for her). The eldest child remembers and those memories shared with them are enough for the younger children to want to stay away. Favouritism and scapegoating would have been enough for me to refuse access to my children.

"Favouritism and scapegoating would have been enough for me to refuse access to my children"

AMEN!

My kids saw this all the time with my nephew. They knew that they were less than he was. What would be seen as "normal" behavior to most was actually nothing but.

All in the car together? He always got the front seat and they were not allowed to talk while he was talking. He got bigger and better gifts. He got to sleep on the couch on sleepover and they slept on the floor.

This is not abusive behavior, but it is toxic behavior and does affect children. It is also something that likely can not be proven in court. Letting the courts and or agencies decide is a slippery slope. It can also be horribly harmful to the child they are supposed to protect when kids do fall through the cracks and those agencies sometimes make bad decisions. It DOES happen.

Onward and Cafe, I agree with everything you both say. Toxic and controlling people always eventually show who they really are. As long as I can lay my head down on my pillow each night knowing that I did the best I could, I don't care what others think. In fact, when I estranged, I also stopped contact with some mutual acquaintances so that they do not have to chose between me and her. I do not need to be spreading our dirty laundry. If she chooses to, then that is on her.

I think part of the multifaceted issue is that going to court is an extremely expensive undertaking. I mention this because if the focus is truly on what is best for the children, how does taking money from their parents help them in any way? If parents are having to fight in court to protect their parental rights to decide what is best for their children, how does that impact their family as a whole?

Certainly less money for any extra curriculars, possibly having to downsize the home, etc. May result in job loss, in time off work for lawyer appts and court dates, or, on the opposite side, parents needing to take on a second job to pay the lawyer. Emotional stress and turmoil in the home, all of which will impact children negatively.

For those who are survivors of child abuse, being dragged to court to protect their children from their abusers, it's a nightmare of epic proportions. "Rip open your wounds and bleed for us, and we'll decide if it's bad enough for you to be believed."

How does one prove abuse decades later? The AC says they were abused. Both parents say it never happened. Who should the court believe?

I get the sinking feeling without evidence beyond, "This is what happened to me," abused children will once again be called liars, and forced to hand their children over to their abusers.

And I don't for a moment doubt that's WHY some grandparents would go to court. To further abuse and control their AC. "How dare you tell me no? I'll show you!" Just as some people claim that AC use children as pawns, or tools, there are grandparents who use their gc as weapons against their AC as well, not caring about the damage done to the child, or the parent/child relationship. In families where there is a GC/Scapegoat dynamic, it carries forth unto the grandchildren as well, and damages that generation too.

Not all grandparents are abusive. That's common sense, in the same way that not all parents are abusive. But to ignore the reality that there ARE abusive parents who are now grandparents puts families in very real danger.

I also object to the idea that the children themselves should be the driving force of the decision making. They're children. The law recognizes that they're incapable of making binding decisions, or giving consent to adult situations. Children, by reason of being children, are assumed to be incapable of such things, that's why they need to have a parent or legal guardian to do those things on their behalf.

I have AC, and 4 minor children at home, ranging from single digit to teens. Even the teens still need guidance, structure and rules, b/c their decision making isn't always well thought out and in their best interest. My youngest would eat nothing but deli meat and candy if it were up to them. All 4 kids would be in front of a screen until their eyes fell out.

Just b/c a kid wants something doesn't mean it's healthy for them. My AC had a friend in their pre-teens that was Bad News. I'm talking, arrests and convictions have happened, on through adulthood level of Bad News. I saw what was happening, knew my kid didn't see it, and stepped in. Did my kid think I was right? Nope. Were they furious with me and think that I was the Most Evilest Mother In The World? Yep. Have they as an adult, come to me and thanked me for stepping in? Yep.

Just b/c a kid says they want contact/a relationship with extended family doesn't mean it's actually healthy for them, and frankly, I think it's terribly wrong to put a child in the situation of having to make that decision. It's an adult decision, imo.

You are right MercuryQueen one of my children is autistic and doesn't understand at all, was the only one upset by estrangement at the time. She understands now as I've explained in appropriate ways.

It was more the change in the end that I worked out she hated. Her routine had to change.

So as much as I've thought children gaining a measure of control might help, unless we tell them all the stories and make them carry our trauma they can't make an informed decision

Most of the posts on this thread have just confirmed my view that signing this petition is wrong. I am a confirmed and active supporter of children's rights and always think their views should be taken into account and they should be permitted to speak out for themselves. But I also recognise that making a child a pawn in whatever battle is taking place between their parents and grandparents is not in the child's best interests. Some children are already faced with the impossible question of choosing which parent they prefer, adding another difficult emotional decision to that (your gran wants to see you but mum and dad don't want her to) really can't be in the child's best interests.
Thanks to all those who have shared their experiences but really, stay away from courts no one comes out of that system unharmed and no one wins. Even for those who acheive what they asked for it is a hollow victory.

I agree trisher that children should never be made to choose, and it's the responsibility of the adults in their lives to ensure that they never have too, or feel that they should.

This thread, and other threads, illustrate why courts shouldn’t be involved.

There are too many different scenarios going on, to make it feasible.

One group know they were abused, as children, and, rightly, don’t want their children running the risk. Some historic abuse cannot be proved, but they know it happened.

One group maybe had pretty “toxic” parenting. They, as adults, didn’t feel abused, as such, (different times, parents were what they were then), not physically or sexually abused, well cared for in most ways, and are ok to at least give the grandparent/grandchild relationship a go. They don’t analyse their childhood, they don’t get involved in books, pods, counselling or analysis. They just bat on, albeit, maybe, with some childhood baggage left there…my group.

Some AC children estrange for their own reasons. Parented fine, happy childhood, but estrange anyway. The reasons are probably many and various - dislike of their parents, can’t be bothered, family dust ups, spousal pressure, financial arguments, whatever.

Some AC are just spiteful, full of bile and use the children as weapons. Because they can.

No Family Court would have the time, or resources, to delve into all these. Taxpayers won’t fund it, it’s expensive, and parents should not be put in the position of maybe losing their Parental Responsibility, because of being unable to afford going to court.

It think AC that keep their children away from a happy and fulfilling relationship with GPs, if there is no good reason to do so, are incredibly selfish. They are not putting their children first.

Those that estrange by text, email, or non verbal communication are cowardly.

They should have the courage and courtesy to at least explain their reasons, in person or by phone, to those they are estranging. Half of the EGPs that post on here genuinely don’t even seem to know what they are supposed to have done wrong.

Which isn’t right, and, no doubt, causes extra distress.

So much truth here! I can't remember who said it, but a few days ago I saw a post on here that said the way to a good relationship with GC is through your AC. This would be ideal!

Unfortunately, that's not always possible. Perhaps there should be mediation or family therapy as a normality because otherwise these patterns may repeat. Every generation wants to do better than the last, yet every generation is hampered with generational faults and traits which are inherited, human and flawed.

Realistically, not everyone is open to therapy or able to bear looking inwards. Yet, personal growth is a good base to be grounded and know it's not you. Or even if it IS you, it will give you positive ways to change. Even if you don't get that person back in your life, your life will still be better and all your relationships will be more healthy.

I really cannot understand why anyone would estrange a good loving mother.

My dad is a great dad but I don't think it's the same, I remember meeting friends mothers growing up and seeing how it could be. Unfortunately as a child, I thought it was my fault I wasn't treated well.

If I ever met someone who just estranged for spite I don't know what I'd say to them really. They have no idea what they have lost.

Yes Onward ideal but not always possible. You cannot have any kind of a relationship, good or bad with some one who simply refuses to communicate with you.

Mediation is available. I know of EP's/EGP's who have offered to fund this but it's been refused.

It takes time, but eventually many people realise that as much as they love the person they're estranged from they're better off without them in their lives.

I think it does cause extra distress DiamondLily. A note with no explanation telling you you are no longer a part of your AC's and GC's lives and are to stay away is cowardly, and particularly cruel when it's posted through the door on Christmas Eve.

We are fortunate that we never knew our GC, the eldest less than a year old when we were estranged.

My heart goes out to the GP's who spent time with their GC and built a relationship with them. Who worry that their GC may think they don't love them anymore. Who wont understand why they've suddenly been removed from there lives, because all communication stops including the cards and gifts they used to receive on their birthdays and at Christmas/

Going to court for contact is not ideal but I understand why, when all else fails, some choose to do so. It doesn't have to be that way does it, and if some parents were prepared to put their children first, it could be avoided.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.