Repairing estrangement

Diamond
I think most families accept that no one is perfect, and still rub along fairly well.
But for some families they become fractured beyond repair, I doubt anyone wants this, I don’t like my mother, but still spent years trying to please her.
Walking away is surely a last resort.

Smileless2012

You haven't offended me Sara. This is such an emotive and painful issue for many isn't it and the reasons for estrangement are many and often complex.

Even not being willing or able to provide childcare for GC has been sited as a reason for being estranged or, produces a very real fear that estrangement will be the result if it isn't given.

If people will, or are prepared to estrange for the that reason, who knows what other reasons they may have.

I think most (normal) families have their flaky periods through life - different expectations not met, communication breaking down, and other non related stresses adding to the mix.

Sometimes, it all sorts itself out quickly, other times it takes longer.

I certainly know younger people that simply cannot be bothered with elderly parents, when they have families of their own - they consider their own lives are full, and don't want to be hassled with having to provide emotional or practical support to their parents. The in laws might also resent the partners parents, for whatever reason.

There are more than a few elderly people living near me, and they chat at times. Many appear bewildered that they appear to have been cast aside by their ACs.

No necessarily fully estranged, but they rarely see or hear from their children. I can't believe they were all abusive or even lousy parents, to be honest.

Same as on here - many estranged parents seem genuinely bewildered as to why everything seemed fine one minute, and then they receive communication cutting them off from the family.

It doesn't make much sense.

Sara Yes I know someone very close to estrangement because of childcare not being available too. I also know someone walking on egg shells to avoid estrangement, linked to childcare.

I am not sure if there is "something else" in every case, I do think sometimes it is that low threshold of tolerance. But then again, the something else might in some cases just be an excuse being found for wanting to estrange ... for instance the DIL you know of who estranged might have been "looking for a "reason" if she didn't really want a relationship or just wanted the usefulness of childcare! And yes, influence from a partner can be a factor ... particularly if the partner is of a particular personality type, or has a difficult history etc which may or may not include estrangement.

I suppose the point is as every case is different with different factors (and possibly some similar factors) then it is easy to think there must be something else. I don't think there is a must be. Sometimes it really is just as it is seen.

I agree. There's not always abuse and denial underpinning estrangement.

It seems to happen for a variety of reasons, some of them being intolerance and impatience from the ACs.

Very often in laws have fractious relationships - MILs and DILs particularly. Some women really resent their partners being close to mum, and some mums find it hard that their sons have a new "number 1 woman" in their lives.

And, to be fair, some grandparents can be overbearing when grandchildren arrive - demanding me-time, alone-time, and generally throwing their weight around.

Some young parents can go OTT - visiting rules written out, rules set down etc.

But, a bit of honest conversation, respect and boundaries being set could solve all that, in healthy families.

Madgran and Diamond
There is a lot is sense in what you both say.
Wise ladies.

That was our experience DiamondLily our closeness to our ES, mine in particular was the cause of jealousy but we'd never envisaged that that would end up with us losing our son and only GC. Especially as we'd made her so welcome and she seemed to be as fond of us, as we were of her.

A low threshold of tolerance is a good point Madgran and I don't think in every case that walking away is a last resort, I think in some instances it's to 'go too' response, especially when no explanation is given as to the reasons why.

It's understandable, depending on your own experience to think there must be something else, but that doesn't make it so in every estrangement scenario.

This type of mismatched personalities or expectations is why I think it's always important to be accountable and apologise.

You can do that while keeping your boundaries intact.

Because some people are more anxious or sensitive or going through a stressful time etc they may be upset by things the other party would shrug off. Because the other party then refuses to apologise or try and change that behaviour perhaps the hurt party feels it is deliberate

But, a bit of honest conversation, respect and boundaries being set could solve all that, in healthy families

True! The problem is if one member of a "healthy" family is influenced by someone external to the "original healthy family" then that doesn't necessarily happen.

That is not to say that "influence" is always negative; its not! In some cases it is freeing. In others it is toxic!

Smileless I have experience of someone whose "go to" response is to walk away from every problem. Nothing ever gets resolved. It is exhausting to watch as they lurch from one hoo ha to another and I have given up advising (when asked to) because nothing ever changes!

And that's a big problem Madgran as we know only too well and unfortunately for us and our ES and GC, that influence is definitely toxic.

Exhausting and frustrating. You feel as if you're going around in ever decreasing circles, getting no where and getting giddy in the process.

Accountability is of course important as is being able to apologise, but as has been addressed throughout this discussion, you have to know what you're being held responsible for. A sincere apology cannot be made without knowing this, and apologising for something you know you haven't done or said is meaningless.

I still think, that once you come to a certain point, maybe something happens or is said, then if you feel that no apology will ever be sufficient, and you’re just stuck in a really bad relationship, then it’s best to walk.

I have found it totally liberating, I have no desire to mend fences, I never want to talk to her again, on the other hand, I wish her no ill will,

I think I’m a better person now, she brought out the very worst in me, and I think it’s likely that I brought out the worst in her.

Because some people are more anxious or sensitive or going through a stressful time etc they may be upset by things the other party would shrug off. Because the other party then refuses to apologise or try and change that behaviour perhaps the hurt party feels it is deliberate

I agree that may well be the case in some circumstances Violet. Within the context of societal changes as I talked about earlier then the chances of what you describe are probably increased.

I also think that "upset" is sometimes used as a lever to create a desired outcome for whatever reason.
In the case of the example mentioned earlier where estrangement has happened or is threatened because childcare is not offered, it doesn't seem to apply, for example.

Such a wide range of possibilities for cause and effect sadly.

once you come to a certain point, maybe something happens or is said, then if you feel that no apology will ever be sufficient, and you’re just stuck in a really bad relationship, then it’s best to walk.

I agree Sara, there are occasions when that is a valid decision to make. I am glad that your decision has worked for you .

Communication is the key and without that there's no where to go.

Someone may be going through a difficult period in their lives and understandably be more sensitive. They may over react because of that so, they can accept that their current state of mind has made them more sensitive and the other person can apologise for whatever they have said and done which has inadvertently caused them pain.

Both in that scenario need to take some responsibility.

However, as you have posted Madgran sometimes being upset provides a convenient excuse to bring about what is really wanted ie estrangement.

I do agree with you Sara and am glad that your estrangement has been a positive for you but, and I apologise for labouring the point, not all estrangements occur because the relationship with the person/people being estranged was really bad.

In our case apart from his brother, our son has estranged his entire family; GP's, cousins, nieces and nephews.

forgot to include uncles and aunts.

Smileless
I know how hard things have been for you, and I know how supportive you are to other members who are going through bad times.

That's very kind of you to say so Sara; thank you.

Sometimes while there may be no abuse a parent can see characteristics that they know they need to protect their child from. For example if someone is manipulative, deceptive and a bully they may want to estrange even if that behaviour was not directed at them.

I think you are right Bibbity or other factors like confining religious beliefs, bigotry or controlling behaviours that people might not want their children exposed too

"Manipulative, deceptive and a bully" is abusive so it would be understandable then Bibbity and I am sure that will be the cause in some estrangement.

There are so many scenario examples aren't there, which may or may not apply in any given case

Except many claim they were never abusive to their children so the estrangement is unjustified.
However their behaviour overall and how they are to others could have a large contribution to the estrangement.
People see relationships as linear rather than the whole picture that is being shown.

I agree with bibbity

Madgran
I agree, so many scenarios.
A lot to do with personality, how much someone is prepared to put up with, are they prepared to rock the boat and upset the whole family? If one parent has gone too far, are you prepared to estrange both?
Can you justify ending any relationship your children may have with them?

It’s probably easier in many ways to go with the flow, but for some of us, that stops being an option.

Bibbity

Except many claim they were never abusive to their children so the estrangement is unjustified.
However their behaviour overall and how they are to others could have a large contribution to the estrangement.
People see relationships as linear rather than the whole picture that is being shown.

Why "except" Bibbity?

As I said, what you described may well be the case in some scenarios and absolutely, yes, in some cases they may not be seeing that their own behaviour may have caused that.

My comment did not deny that so I am not sure what your point is!

many claim they were never abusive to their children so the estrangement is unjustified there are claims from EAC that they had awful parents so the estrangement is justified, so it cuts both ways.

We have friends whose D was very low contact with her parents and particularly abusive to her mother for not sharing in her religious beliefs.

So many scenarios resulting in estrangement can be due to the behaviour of the AC who estranges their parents, including manipulation, control, deception and bullying.

I wanted to highlight the issue that is often raised. Almost all agree that of an AC has been the victim of abuse at the hands of their parents that they are justified in estranging them.

But the behaviour may not have been directed at them specifically. But the cracks always show on people who target and attack others. They can't hide it. And so a parent would be justified in protecting their child and estranging.

The Estranged parent could look at the relationship and say they had never been abusive and gave their child a happy childhood but that doesn't change their character. It doesn't change the fact that they as a person are what the child is avoiding.